Harmful Liberal Policies Mega-Thread

[Emerald]

Just now, Thought Art said:

@Emerald Okay, but the plastic banning straws thing is a good idea. The whole diables thing is a moot point because exceptions can easily be made. They are a small % of population and there are easy alternatives to plastic straws that need not be single use plastics.

I was just trying to find some problematic leftist policies. It's problematic and overall ineffectual. But it doesn't bother me too much as a policy for the reasons you mentioned. I'm pretty indifferent about banning/not banning plastic straws because the real problem is single-use plastic in general. And if you ban plastic straws without banning other forms of single-use plastic, it's not going to do anything substantial.

The thing is, policy-wise, it's hard to track down harmful leftist policies because it's hard to track down leftist policies in Capitalist nations period.

And when there are leftist policies in Capitalist nations, they tend to just be piddly and ineffectual... and never too strong to the point of corruption. So, you would mostly find ineffectual leftist policies with mildly problematic side-effects.

So, it's much easier to make lists of harmful right-wing policies because the majority of American policies are center-right. 

You really have to go to authoritarian left countries to find truly harmful leftist policies.

[Thought Art]

@Emerald I think it was intended as a start because doing it in one sweep is impossible. 
 

I have to contemplate more of them that are leftist problematic policy… like open boardings, defunding police, allowing in too many immigrants, legalizing all drugs, being too easy going on criminals who steal as it promotes mass thievery, allowing for parol of violent offenders, allowing children to have sex change surgery, and more, not funding the military enough, policies in universities around speech, opinions and being overly sensitive and SJW, policies that get people in trouble for having more conservative views and opinions, controlled speech, etc

I also thing UBI could easily backfire. Perhaps even Canadas carbon tax could backfire. 
 

The it’s so hard to tell on the offset which policy will be problematic as we are dealing with highly complex system. 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Emerald I think it was intended as a start because doing it in one sweep is impossible. 
 

I have to contemplate more of them that are leftist problematic policy… like open boardings, defunding police, allowing in too many immigrants, legalizing all drugs, being too easy going on criminals who steal as it promotes mass thievery, allowing for parol of violent offenders, allowing children to have sex change surgery, and more, not funding the military enough, etc

I also thing UBI could easily backfire. Perhaps even Canadas carbon tax could backfire. 
 

The it’s so hard to tell on the offset which policy will be problematic as we are dealing with highly complex system. 

There is a difference between policies and philosophical positions. A policy is an actually codified law, while a philosophical position is just what someone believes.

And there are no such policies around open borders. And you'd be hard-pressed to find a leftist that actually believes that open borders is feasible and holds it as a policy position. It's more of a right wing straw man of what lefties believe. And it's certainly not reflected in any policies anywhere.

With defunding police.... that is a common philosophical position among lefties. But you won't find many codified policies around defunding the police. Butthere are positive ways to do this by re-allocating funds to other types of interventions in non-criminal cases (like someone with a mental illness that the police might be ill-equipped to understand and intervene with).

With allowing in too many immigrants, that's a subjective judgment and you'd have to give me specific policies to evaluate. But bear in mind that the U.S government allows the level of immigration that they currently do simply because our economic system requires a cheap immigrant labor force. And when DeSantis put into policy something that really impacted immigration to Florida, it led to a huge labor shortage. So, the U.S. system (whether Republicans or Democrats are in power) allow only the level of immigration that they need. And Obama was accused of being soft on the border whilst also having the nickname "deporter in chief" because he had very strict policies. Biden has similarly strict immigration policies. So, I haven't seen any of these 'too lenient' border policies in the U.S. at least.

With legalizing all drugs... this is one that I agree with as a philosophical position but there aren't many of these policies in effect yet. I think it's important to decriminalize, tax, and regulate all drugs. The reason why is that, when you criminalize drug use, it just pushes everything under ground and you get all these illegal cartels with all sorts of awful business practices. And you get just as many people doing the drugs who are then (on top of dealing with addiction) put in jail/prison which can further push them into a downward spiral.

Name me the actual policies around going easy on criminals, and I will judge them individually. The issue here is that these are more vague philosophical ideas and not ACTUAL codified policies. So, I can't critique them on the policy level.

With allowing parole of violent offenders, let me see the policy and show me that leftists are promoting it. Then, I can judge it. I haven't heard many lefties specifically holding parole of violent offenders as a common philosophical position... though rehabilitation-focused justice is a lefty thing. But I would have to see the actual policy to judge it.

Also, the last time I checked policy-wise, children under 16 aren't allowed to have a gender affirming surgical interventions. Under specific circumstances, you have to be 16+ to get top surgery and 18+ to get bottom surgery. And there are many protocols that gender affirming care specialists have to go through to give the okay to someone (adults and children) who wants to surgically transition.

With not funding the military enough... this one just isn't true... in the US at least. In America, we have the biggest military budget in the world by far. And we increase the military budget every single year. There are no such policies around reducing funding for the military.

with UBI, there are no such policies that I'm aware of.

And I am not familiar with Canada's carbon tax policy.

[Thought Art]

@Emerald These policies are promoted by people. I read a book advocating for open boarders many years ago. 
 

The things I listed and policies people have pushed for.

I wasn’t listing policies by leftist wants for policy. 
 

I would consider policy around allowing violent criminals out of jail a more left leaning policy. But, open to other opinions. 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

@Emerald

 

1. policies around immigration: In Canada we have let in many immigrants which has lead to a housing crisis and cost of living crisis, at least in part. 

 

2. Legalizing Drugs Complete Failure: Oregan has Legalized drugs and it has been a complete failure. 

3. Easy on Crime Complete Failure: There is a policy in San Fancisco that has made petty crimes a misdemeanour instead of a criminal act and it has severely back fired and theft runs rampit 

 

Other things you’ve mentioned would likely fall I to people policy ideals, and I think you may find examples of people actually trying to pass those policies. 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Emerald]

Just now, Thought Art said:

@Emerald These policies are promoted by people. I read a book advocating for open boarders many years ago. 
 

The things I listed and policies people have pushed for.

Like I said, this post is about actual policies (codified laws) and not philosophical positions. You could even list policy proposals that got even remotely close to becoming law and I would consider it within the realm of policy.

The issue with philosophical positions is that there are uninformed and politically naive people everywhere that don't have any real political power.

You could find a person who believes in open borders because they know nothing about how the systems work.

I believed in open borders when I was a kid because I had a naive sense that divisions of any kind should go away. I just listened to John Lennon's "Imagine" and like the idea. 

But I didn't have the capability or desire to get that codified into law. And I certainly wasn't a leftist back then. I was just politically naive.

So, you might have read a book from a politically naive person who believed in open borders and you could find small enclaves of people that might agree.

But it's not a commonly held leftist position and there aren't any "open borders" policy positions going through congress or coming across the president's desk.

[Thought Art]

@Emerald My post is still fine for this thread. We are sorting through policy ideas.  
 

There is of course a lot of value in people here looking at both policy, and philosophical ideas around policy. There are people who push for policy which each of the things I’ve listed if one takes time to research. 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Emerald

 

1. policies around immigration: In Canada we have let in many immigrants which has lead to a housing crisis and cost of living crisis, at least in part. 

 

2. Legalizing Drugs Complete Failure: Oreganos had Legalized drugs and it has been a complete failure. 

3. Easy on Crime Complete Failure: There is a policy in San Fancisco that has made petty crimes a misdemeanour instead of a criminal act and it has severely back fired and theft runs rampit 

 

 

I'll come back later and check these out and see what the policies are like.

[Thought Art]

@Emerald You’ve brought up many good points also. 😊

I am by no means an expert in this area. I have minimal time downs studying it or contemplating it. 
 

Maybe more than some as I have watched Leo’s video on conscious politics, on his ideas around what left and right are, as well as books and courses I have taken. But, it’s not a key area of focus for me.  
 

Of course when it comes to leftist ideas around policy they come in many forms and degrees. Left is far too broad a category. It’s important to look at policy ideas, proposals, philosophy, ideas, etc each individually and in combination. 

There are open boarders within the EU for example which creates problems.

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

I challenge you to find literally ANY policies in any nation on Earth that actually reflect open borders. You won't find any.

Of course no country actually has open borders. However if extreme leftists had their way the borders would be a lot more open, and that could create serious problems which they are in denial about.

Edited April 6 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura Within the EU

Ive driven right from the Netherlands into Germany many times. The boarders are open once you are in. 
 

You could argue there is a boarder around the EU, but apparently Germany is struggling with Immgrrants getting into other member countries and then going there leading to over population and immigration issue.

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

@Leo Gura Within the EU

Yeah, but the EU has strict rules for membership.

US states have open borders but that's very different opening to the outside. Because the states are roughly equal in economic and other kinds of development. And to be in the US a state has to adhere to many Federal laws.

Edited April 6 by Leo Gura

[Thought Art]

@Leo Gura I don’t know enough about EU policy, but know there is an immigration problem as I’ve described above. Once you’re in the EU I think it may be easier to move around. But, I don’t know enough. 
 

I added to the post.

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but the EU has strict rules for membership.

US states have open borders but that's very different opening to the outside. Because the states are roughly equal in economic and other kinds of development. And to be in the US a state has to adhere to many Federal laws.

Noted

-//

This is good to add here

 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

Problem with too many immigrants , potential. Canada has 7% immigrants… 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[Girzo]

@Thought Art You think 7% is a lot or not a lot? I think it's a small number. Especially for Canada, a country initially built on migration.

Edited April 6 by Girzo

[zurew]

10 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Or maybe even more interestingly, are there patterns of behavior or societal and psychological drivers that predictably lead to these failures in degree of implementation? Isn't that what Daniel Schmachtenberger and his ilk are doing with concepts like the Metacrisis, Moloch, Meaning crisis, Game 1 vs. 2? Isn't that what a lack of wisdom is (a lack of balance)? And how do you implement these concepts in practice and in a wise way? That's probably the most interesting conversation you can have.

Yep, thats where the interesting and worthwhile potential conversations are. But,  lets be real here - to actually establish those kinds of arguments in a non-vague and in a rigorous way - that requires things that most of us don't have the prerequisite skills and or knowledge for (especially when it comes to domain specific things). 

• How many people here do you think have good enough stat knowledge, so that he/she can properly evaluate the empirical data on any of your mentioned topics?
• How many people here do you think have actually read at least one full wiki article on any of your mentioned topics?
• How many people do you think in general here would be able to steelman both the pro and the contra side on any of your mentioned topics in a way where the inquiry actually goes down at least 5-6 levels deep and we don't get stuck at knocking down the weakest arguments or we don't get stuck at knocking down strawman arguments?
• How many people here do you think have looked up actual research on any of your mentioned topics?
• How many people here do you think have read books on any of your mentioned topics?
• and how many people do you think here even has an idea what a valid argument is ,let alone what a sound argument is and how many of them would be able to actually create a sound argument?

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course no country actually has open borders. However if extreme leftists had their way the borders would be a lot more open, and that could create serious problems which they are in denial about.

I addressed that in an earlier post. You can find very politically naive people here and there who believe in open borders.

But in my experience, it's not a widely held leftist policy proposal. You never see lefties rallying together and pushing proposals to abolish/open the border. Most active progressives are aware that that's not possible.

Instead, the immigration-related policy proposals progressives rally around would be more around pathways to citizenship, abolishing ICE, not putting kids in cages, and better treatment of undocumented immigrants at the border. 

And there is nothing policy-wise that's gotten anywhere close to suggesting open borders.

Open borders is just a phrase that Republican politician use to straw man the Democrats and scare their constituents into voting for them.

The name of the thread is "harmful leftist policies", so I would be coming to this thread for critiques on things like laws (and bills that have nearly passed) and a critique of the outcomes (or potential outcomes) of those policies.

I would expect the same from a thread called "harmful right-wing policies".

So, an equivalent situation would be if someone went on the "harmful right-wing policies" thread and suggested they were against the policy of deporting all immigrants. 

Sure, you can find some fringe group of right-wingers that are pushing that as a policy proposal and you might have a sizable minority of right-wingers that even dream of that as an ideal... in the same way that a sizable minority of left-wingers might dream of a world without borders as an ideal.

But there's no such policy or policy proposal... at least not in the US or anywhere that I know of. 

My main point is... if we're talking about policy... let's talk about policy and policy-proposals and not just whims, philosophies, and ideas.

Edited April 6 by Emerald

[Thought Art]

52 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@Thought Art You think 7% is a lot or not a lot? I think it's a small number. Especially for Canada, a country initially built on migration.

It’s high plus we had like half a million international students. You can ask if it is high but we also have a lack of housing for Canadians apparently. There are many tent cities all across Canada Hard to know all the factors for that though, Air BnB etc. The more I think about it and all the factors that cause our housing and cost of living crisis I am unsure. I do suspect high immigration plays a roll. It’s extremely high and all at once as well and I think that is dangerous. Filling your country with people who don’t know your country and think different is dangerous. I am not like super duly worried But, we are in this particular thread 
 

Where I live is now unrecognizable from my childhood. 

Edited April 6 by Thought Art

[actuallyenlightened]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Open borders is just a phrase that Republican politician use to straw man the Democrats and scare their constituents into voting for them.

You can't make that argument when the dems in Washington decide to cut barbed wire that Texans put up. It might as well be an open border if it's that easy for a migrant to cross.