Hamas is a perfect reflection of Islam

[Heaven]

There is no doubt that religion is flawed at its core.

My main issue with religion that it separates you from someone who doesn’t believe in the same religion.
In Islam you must pray 5 times a day and there is no way you won’t be brain washed. 

I can clearly see how unconscious Muslim people can be. They are just repeating things without fully understand what they say.

I truly believe that when the world transcends religion. It will be a better place. 
 

 

[Karmadhi]

Islam, like other major religions has tons of wisdom on it but the way it is practiced in real life are so dogmatic that it may seem so to you.

Leo made a good video explaining Islam.

 

It is not a function of Islam, it is a function of ALL religions when performed DOGMATICALLY.

It is not like Christianity nor Judaism are much better.

Even Buddhism can lead to devilry if unproperly managed.

It is like saying medicine is bad because it can kill you when done improperly.

But when done properly, it can heal you.

Your critic of Islam is about Stage Blue application of Islam which is indeed problematic.

But it is not about Islam per say.

Judaism, Budhism and Christianity are as much or more toxic when applied by Stage Blue.

But that is not the fault of the thing itself, just of the level of development of who applies it.

 

 

 

Edited April 4 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

13 minutes ago, Heaven said:

I truly believe that when the world transcends religion. It will be a better place. 

I truly believe that when the world transcends Stage Blue application of religion. It will be a better place. 

Here fixed it for you  

[Nivsch]

The son of hamas former leader who has escaped, exposes hamas real ideology, their barbaric actions to their own palestinian people and the unprecedented complicated situation of a modern army in the current war in Gaza.

And an in depth Interview (2 hours long) I am going to spend the weekend in:

 

Edited April 4 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Islam, like other major religions has tons of wisdom on it but the way it is practiced in real life are so dogmatic that it may seem so to you.

Leo made a good video explaining Islam.

 

It is not a function of Islam, it is a function of ALL religions when performed DOGMATICALLY.

It is not like Christianity nor Judaism are much better.

Even Buddhism can lead to devilry if unproperly managed.

It is like saying medicine is bad because it can kill you when done improperly.

But when done properly, it can heal you.

Your critic of Islam is about Stage Blue application of Islam which is indeed problematic.

But it is not about Islam per say.

Judaism, Budhism and Christianity are as much or more toxic when applied by Stage Blue.

But that is not the fault of the thing itself, just of the level of development of who applies it.

Fair.

Now apply this nuanced attitude towards Israel.

[Karmadhi]

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Fair.

Now apply this nuanced attitude towards Israel.

I did not want to make this about Hamas/ Israel but I will try to give my analysis.

To me their are mostly stage Red while my comment was about stage blue which is 90% of Muslims. Keep in mind most Muslims are not like Hamas. Hamas represents the most radical parts of Islam. ISIS to be even more precise to me are pure Stage Red Islam. But these are almost gone now.

Hamas is a bit tricky because to me their thing is about land and resistance more than just spreading radical Islam like ISIS for example.

If Israel was magically gone, their cause would be also gone meanwhile the same cannot be said for ISIS.

Iran I would put Blue, with Saudi Arabia too. They represent classical fundamental dogmatic blue religion. Toxic blue. Countries like Egypt would be more moderate blue.

Talebans are mostly red with some blue in them. All toxic of course.

Their guiding book may be Islam but their ultimate cause is about land.

At least the Hamas that is portrayed to the world and what most of its fighters believe in, I do not know their top leader agendas.

With Israel I find most of their government including their PM, classic stage blue fundamentalists.

Perhaps Ben Gvir could have slights of Red due to his bloodthirsty remarks but in general it gives me a blue vibe. To me he represents the most radical part of Judaism. I can tell nobody in this forum likes him. That is enough proof.

The reason I mention him so much is because he is in a key governmental position. I believe you that he represents maybe 5% of the most radical people. But so did Goebbels. He was the most radical of the Nazis and probably 5% of Germans at large would fully agree with his views. Yet, many of atrocities of Nazis are attributed to him. 5% when it rules can make decisions on behalf of 100%. 

Bennet also seems typical blue to me.

I am not familiar enough with past Israeli politicans except the one that got killed by radical Zionists (that were part of Ben Gvir group) so I cannot comment on them much.

I think some were more Orange and  maybe even Green but I see stage blue  dominating Israeli politics. Not that I blame them. They picked to live in a part of the world that hates them guts which keeps them from evolving towards green.

There is some truth to them saying that its only when Jews kill Muslims that they get so mad, while Muslims killing Muslims is somewhat ok. It is indeed a double standard. I asked a close muslim friend of mine and his response:

"When Muslim Arabs fight, its like brothers fighting within the same household. When Israel gets involved, its like a stranger picking a fight with one of your brothers".

 

Edited April 4 by Karmadhi

[DocWatts]

Hamas is a perfect reflection of SD-Red Islam. Nasty stuff, but you're taking basically taking the worst expression of Islam and using that to make a bad generalization. Islam can and is practiced at higher stages of ego development. (Hell, the guy I voted for in the Democratic primary for my state's governor was a progressive Muslim ala Bernie Sanders)

[Vrubel]

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

"When Muslim Arabs fight, its like brothers fighting within the same household. When Israel gets involved, its like a stranger picking a fight with one of your brothers".

 

That statement would have been within integrity if the "brothers fighting" were just squabbling with limits to their intensity and never crossing certain lines. But this is not what's happening. Arabs have no qualms about brutally massacering, torturing each other and running bombs through busy markets. In the trend of Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and more. 

If the Arabs were not such a people prone to riff-raff  and extremist behaviors they would have guilted the early idealist Zionists a long time ago in just giving them their state or a one state solution.

Disclaimer: my statements are not meant to demonize or hurt anyone. There are plenty of decent and respectable people among the Arabs. 

 

8 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Bennet also seems typical blue to me.

Bennet is also a worldly tech millionaire (that's orange) and his blue is highly healthy healthy and integral. Ben Gvir is a nutcase but Bennet represents a more upright, decent and integral side of religious Zionism which is about 20% of Israel's population.  

 

 

[Leo Gura]

That's the problem of Stage Blue, the Conformist stage of development.

The problem isn't Islam, the problem is getting stuck in deep Stage Blue, and that's where most of Islam is today.

Edited April 5 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the problem of Stage Blue, the Conformist stage of development.

The problem isn't Islam, the problem is getting stuck in deep Stage Blue, and that's where most of Islam is today.

Still, some cultures more than others are severely missing in the "chill factor".

Life in South America is poor, hard, and unequal yet the people have a certain attitude and chill in life. Sure I might get robbed there by some bad actors in a big city but that's about it. Despite often being religious Latino culture scores very high with the chill factor. In South America they just had one major war in the 19th century and that's it. 

The problem is definitely deeper than just stage blue Islam.

Edited April 5 by Vrubel

[Raze]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's the problem of Stage Blue, the Conformist stage of development.

The problem isn't Islam, the problem is getting stuck in deep Stage Blue, and that's where most of Islam is today.

Palestinians were actually a more secular leaning population in the Middle East, Hamas and religious extremism was popularized there as an adaptation to survive the brutal oppression by Israel. Israel and the US also supported fermenting radical violent interpretations Islam and crushing the peaceful movements and secular groups.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Still, some cultures more than others are severely missing in the "chill factor".

Life in South America is poor, hard, and unequal yet the people have a certain attitude and chill in life. Sure I might get robbed there by some bad actors in a big city but that's about it. Despite often being religious Latino culture scores very high with the chill factor. In South America they just had one major war in the 19th century and that's it. 

Like people, some nations have ambition and some do not. The higher one's ambition the more people one will step on to acheive it.

[Vrubel]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Like people, some nations have ambition and some do not. The higher one's ambition the more people one will step on to acheive it.

Also depends on what kind of ambitions. Ukraine struck me as an exceptionally chill country before the war. Their main ambition was to just better themselves and join Europe. 

Edited April 5 by Vrubel

[Leo Gura]

Ukraine has low ambition.

[Vrubel]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Ukraine has low ambition.

What about "healthy ambitious", like Poland. They are much more fierce and defensive of their culture and nation. But they do not seek expansion so they have the full right to put protective measures on their culture and society. 

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

like Poland

No ambition.

[Vrubel]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No ambition.

Oke, it's just that Polish people I don't consider as scoring particularly high with the chill factor because they are much more fiercely nationalistic.  (which might be understandable, no judgment.)

Edited April 5 by Vrubel

[Sandroew]

11 hours ago, Heaven said:

I truly believe that when the world transcends religion. It will be a better place. 
 

The keyword here is ! transcend !

Which is not so simple as you think, i assume. If you could just "delete" religion starting from tomorrow, it may cause more harm than good. Religion is a way to find common values and therefore unite people. Thats what Spiral Dynamics tells you too. Without religion, some people would just revert to Stage Red. 

The whole Gender war shebang is an interesting example from the Western World. Religion used to tell you about these values and now, where religion is not important in the culture anymore, its a source of all kinds of issues.

Now in opposition of many, i dont think its the sign of downfall of western culture, exactly because we are working ourself through an important problem, whereas before, with religion you were kind of just told by culture how to be. BUT it is easy ? No! Do we have issues because of it ? Yes!

Now that is a problem from the rich Western countries, just imagine what would the abolishment of religion in the Middle East do.

[Bobby_2021]

95% of Islam are of sane people who don't support this.

But it's hard to ignore the loud minority. They dictate the terms these days in every faction. 

Edited April 5 by Bobby_2021

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

That statement would have been within integrity if the "brothers fighting" were just squabbling with limits to their intensity and never crossing certain lines. But this is not what's happening. Arabs have no qualms about brutally massacering, torturing each other and running bombs through busy markets. In the trend of Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon and more. 

If the Arabs were not such a people prone to riff-raff  and extremist behaviors they would have guilted the early idealist Zionists a long time ago in just giving them their state or a one state solution.

Disclaimer: my statements are not meant to demonize or hurt anyone. There are plenty of decent and respectable people among the Arabs. 

Those are fair points. Personally I do not agree with the statement my friend said. Seems quite biased to me. 

 It was to give you guys insights into how people from that region see this conflict.

 

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Bennet is also a worldly tech millionaire (that's orange) and his blue is highly healthy healthy and integral. Ben Gvir is a nutcase but Bennet represents a more upright, decent and integral side of religious Zionism which is about 20% of Israel's population.

Regarding Bennet I did not comment on whether he is healthy or toxic blue, just that he is stage blue. But his interviews with Piers Morgan and some other journalists make me think he lowkey views all Gazans as responsible and he is ok with them all being killed. To me that is quite toxic blue. Ironically Hamas think the same, all Zionists are responsible for the situation in Palestine. It is toxic thinking which leads to war. Also I read that he made some racist remarks against Arabs which he was attacked on in an interview some years ago. But to be honest I do not know him much. So I will take your word about him.

You may call Ben gvir just a nutcase but he is the one making a lot of important decisions about Israel, not Bennet.

So if Ben Gvir is a nutcase= Israeli actions will be that of a nutcase.

At least on the areas he is responsible for.