Why doesnt the West, especially the US, abandon Israel?

[BlueOak]

29 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

You think it's right wing only because you belong in the top 5% of humanity.

The US & Israel are among the most liberal nations in the world considering how conservative the rest of the world is. So make no mistake, the libs are who got us into this. What you are seeing is liberalism. 

She was kicked for "anti Semitic" remarks even though she replied with one word answers on X. Like "AIPAC" 

It's on libs who made it racist to criticize anyone but straight white men. And now you couldn't even criticize Israel with facts for fear of being called  an anti Semite. 

It's the libs who dug their own ground. Own it.

Your and my entire country got us into this, mine is currently conservative. These parties are two sides of the same coin, one governmental whole. You can't break that apart and achieve any effective change to the whole by not owning all of it as you say. The problem is structural, and its in people, the people themselves.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2020

Both your parties were rightwing in 2020, I can only imagine what they will all look like after this is calculated in this year, mine won't be much better with our so called 'left' under starmer.

There is not a practical leftwing in America bar a few voices, and barely any in England . You can, as demonstrated by all this, be liberal and right-wing. The liberals biggest fault is that its all about how things look, or sound. Which is useful for keeping people from fighting each other, or disruptions from occurring, but as you can see when they are so far right, they are the ones fueling the wars, the ideology becomes horrific in its suppression of criticism (calls for peace), and shows another aspect of liberalism's dark side.

And by the way if you didn't see everyone in America, average joe people included, ravenous to supply Israel with mountains of weapons, I can certainly pull hundreds of videos for you. 

[BlueOak]

19 minutes ago, royce said:

This is not accurate at all

Why is this not accurate, its an obvious strategic pattern repeated three times. What is your counter argument? Are you arguing that countries don't constantly try to push their influence outward, and other countries don't constantly push back? Or are you saying NATO isn't holding Russia in Ukraine, China in Taiwan and Iran in Israel?

If China takes Taiwan, they own trillions of dollars of global trade routes through those waters, that's going to increase the price of everything you own from insurance costs, if you can get things like semi conductors for any technology at all through instability and/or tolls. They would have launching paths to the disputed Japanese Senkaku islands, and the many other countries disputed islands to their south east they are already trying to take over. It fuels their expansionist policies generally; if needed, I can retrace these expansions for you and the regions China have invaded. Taiwan gives them clear access to numerous Southeast Asian countries waters, which they've decided to try to steal. America would have to arm 15 countries to maintain their presence and allies there, rather than one, Taiwan. If I need to run a history recap of why America won't allow another huge naval buildup in eastern Asia by a hostile power to threaten global trade and its western influence, then I can. Just read the history of WW2 or the lead up to it, then add in a globalized world.

We've already discussed Israel's military presence, how America maintains a balance on Iran and its many proxies above, and also touched on Russia slightly. If Russia needs further highlighting, talking about the black sea expansion Russia was trying, the 8 attacks on former USSR countries, or the takeover of its gas connections, I can certain retread old ground on these things and others.

Edited April 6 by BlueOak

[royce]

10 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Why is this not accurate, its an obvious strategic pattern repeated three times. What is your counter argument? Are you arguing that countries don't constantly try to push their influence outward, and other countries don't constantly push back? Or are you saying NATO isn't holding Russia in Ukraine, China in Taiwan and Iran in Israel?

If China takes Taiwan, they own trillions of dollars of global trade routes through those waters, that's going to increase the price of everything you own from insurance costs, if you can get things like semi conductors for any technology at all through instability and/or tolls. They would have launching paths to the disputed Japanese Senkaku islands, and the many other countries disputed islands to their south east they are already trying to take over. It fuels their expansionist policies generally; if needed, I can retrace these expansions for you and the regions China have invaded. Taiwan gives them clear access to numerous Southeast Asian countries waters, which they've decided to try to steal. America would have to arm 15 countries to maintain their presence and allies there, rather than one, Taiwan. If I need to run a history recap of why America won't allow another huge naval buildup in eastern Asia by a hostile power to threaten global trade and its western influence, then I can. Just read the history of WW2 or the lead up to it, then add in a globalized world.

We've already discussed Israel's military presence, how America maintains a balance on Iran and its many proxies above, and also touched on Russia slightly. If Russia needs further highlighting, talking about the black sea expansion Russia was trying, the 8 attacks on former USSR countries, or the takeover of its gas connections, I can certain retread old ground on these things and others.

No , this is not accurate in my opinion , " Israel holds Iran in check and allows America to project power "

[BlueOak]

5 minutes ago, royce said:

No , this is not accurate in my opinion , " Israel holds Iran in check and allows America to project power "

You're not expanding, why you disagree?

Israel and Saudi Arabia are both allies of the west, though Saudi Arabia has wavered in recent years because they didn't get unrestricted weapon shipments to keep bombing Yemen into nothing (that and Russian OPEC pressure). Both don't like Iran very much, and both get weapons from the west. This is no accident.

Iran tries to exert influence over countries like Yemen through religion, cultural influence, proxy forces, and weapons.
America tries to exert influence through money, military bases, and weapons.

It should be no surprise why this is the case:

Edited April 6 by BlueOak

[Bobby_2021]

24 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

Your and my entire country got us into this, mine is currently conservative.

I am from India lol. People assume I am American for whatever reason.

26 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

There is not a practical leftwing in America bar a few voices, and barely any in England

Liberalism can thrive only in good times. Times of abundance and prosperity. In times of trouble people start to notice the way they become decadent in their past liberal era and gets into a conservative bubble.

This decade is going to be a regression to conservatism throughout the globe. Liberalism thrived from 2010-22. 

2023-30s are going to be the breaking down of the liberal international order. 

30 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

And by the way if you didn't see everyone in America, average joe people included, ravenous to supply Israel with mountains of weapons, I can certainly pull hundreds of videos for you. 

The average joe can hardly spot Israel on the map.

7 minutes ago, royce said:

No , this is not accurate in my opinion , " Israel holds Iran in check and allows America to project power "

It looks more like Israel uses America to destroy Iran. 

[BlueOak]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am from India lol. People assume I am American for whatever reason.

Liberalism can thrive only in good times. Times of abundance and prosperity. In times of trouble people start to notice the way they become decadent in their past liberal era and gets into a conservative bubble.

This decade is going to be a regression to conservatism throughout the globe. Liberalism thrived from 2010-22. 

2023-30s are going to be the breaking down of the liberal international order. 

The average joe can hardly spot Israel on the map.

It looks more like Israel uses America to destroy Iran. 

In England we have tended toward socialism in hard times. We've been conservative for 14 years, so its possible. 

However, for me personally, its been nearly twenty years of recession already, since 2008 and the bank crash at the very least, we also had covid and Brexit, but there were a few years before that as well leading to the banking crash. Where we are at now is past conservatism and closer to fascism, the reform party is trying to supplant the conservatives here with a further right government as an example.

Apologies I should checkout people's profiles more, I think it was your name that threw me off and the choice of avatar.

[royce]

49 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

You're not expanding, why you disagree?

Israel and Saudi Arabia are both allies of the west, though Saudi Arabia has wavered in recent years because they didn't get unrestricted weapon shipments to keep bombing Yemen into nothing (that and Russian OPEC pressure). Both don't like Iran very much, and both get weapons from the west. This is no accident.

Iran tries to exert influence over countries like Yemen through religion, cultural influence, proxy forces, and weapons.
America tries to exert influence through money, military bases, and weapons.

It should be no surprise why this is the case:

Iran exerts significant control in Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, and Yemen. This control was solidified after the Iraq invasion, and following the failure of the United States and Arab countries to overthrow Bashar al-Assad. Iran fought fiercely to preserve Syria, ensuring continuous borders between Iran and Lebanon

The United States initially aimed to address the issue with Iran, but due to Israeli pressure, it ultimately withdrew from the nuclear agreement.

After former President Trump’s decision to cancel the nuclear agreement, which came under Israeli pressure, a new strategy has emerged: the formation of an Arab-Israeli NATO alliance. The purpose of this alliance is twofold—to counter Iran’s influence and prevent further expansion

 So I disagree with In This  US policy shifted due to Israeli pressure, rather than solely based on America’s interests, oil, or other factors

During Donald Trump’s presidency, six Arab regimes normalized their relations with Israel. Saudi Arabia was also expected ( and it will ) to sign a peace agreement, which would have been a significant event benefiting both President Biden’s administration and Prime Minister Netanyahu. However, behind the scenes, Saudi Arabia and Israel not only align with Western interests but also maintain a covert alliance between themselves

 

[BlueOak]

@royce

Thanks for sharing your view. I agree Russia, Iran, and the Syrian government won in Syria for the most part, though the devastation was horrific.

I'll agree that these countries with valuable exports and a lot of money exert pressure on bigger countries, but the reason people don't understand how they can move a huge country like America to do what they want, is that America wants to do this as well. If they didn't want to help or keep Iran pinned and their hands out of their fuel suppliers, Israel and Saudi Arabia wouldn't be able to budge America to do anything, the size difference and geographic distance would make it impossible. 

Edited April 6 by BlueOak

[royce]

38 minutes ago, BlueOak said:

@royce

Thanks for sharing your view. I agree Russia, Iran, and the Syrian government won in Syria for the most part, though the devastation was horrific.

I'll agree that these countries with valuable exports and a lot of money exert pressure on bigger countries, but the reason people don't understand how they can move a huge country like America to do what they want, is that America wants to do this as well. If they didn't want to help or keep Iran pinned and their hands out of their fuel suppliers, Israel and Saudi Arabia wouldn't be able to budge America to do anything, the size difference and geographic distance would make it impossible. 

:))))))

saudi arabia not able , but Israel in my opinion able , 

check this :

 

 

Edited April 6 by royce

[StarStruck]

There us strong Jewish lobby in these countries. They are very deceitful. 

[royce]

14 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

There us strong Jewish lobby in these countries. They are very deceitful. 

“The authoritarian Arab regimes have astutely grasped the dynamics at play. When seeking favors from the United States, they recognize that the path leads through Israel. However, it’s essential to understand that their motivations aren’t driven by the welfare of their nations; rather, it’s a strategic move to safeguard their own positions of power.

[bebotalk]

20 hours ago, royce said:

How does international law intersect with Trump and NATO? Does the United States contribute financially to NATO in support of international law? NO Europe falls within the American sphere of influence, similar to the Middle East, this influence doesn’t directly impact compliance with international law.

American foreign policy views Russia as an adversary, and consequently, its actions in Europe are influenced by this perspective

 

this is what I'm saying i hope in the future gonna be better Humans and better Goverments  , but i think we need a long time to Achieve this  

NATO operates via the North Atlantic Treaty. It thus is, by design and definition, international law. So is the new NAFTA he signed. So is the European Union. So is the UN, WTO, or any manner of extradition treaties for instance existing between states. Your view here is confused. 

With respect, what is the point you and Leo are trying to convey? Yes, humans are imperfect. Laws aren't always followed. By this logic, then all national civil and criminal law should end because humans are imperfect actors. Not all countries follow international law fully. And? Again, what is the point? Sovereign states generally have relations with each other, and international law is the mechanism by which this is done. 

The USA contributes to NATO out of its own self-interest. And this done via a treaty is signed with other countries in 1949, and which is regulated by standing international law practices. Trump calling out other NATO members for not paying their fair share was him stating that his country was abiding by a treaty his predecessor Truman signed in good faith. Any treaty between states is by design within the bounds of international law. Stating points like "well in 50 years time" is odd, since it's doubtful unless there is a massive shift in human nature or mass genetic engineering conducted in the future, imperfect actors would exist. 

The UN sanctions placed on Russia are part of international law. As were sanctions placed on South Africa. The division of North and South Korea that still exists is part of international law, as was Brexit. If Russia and Ukraine call a ceasefire or negotiate a settlement, that would be part of international law by definition.  So does international law exist or not? It clearly does.

And where else do militaries gain instructions or orders from? it's politicians. Again, both of you are making ill-informed points 

Edited April 6 by bebotalk

[bebotalk]

On 05/04/2024 at 3:03 PM, Karmadhi said:

Not evil but I think Western leaders, especially the older ones have a subconscious tolerance for colonialism and ethnic cleansing since they come from countries that did it historically at a grand scale. All Israel hard allies either were colonialist powerhouses or are built on colonialism itself (USA).

How come Ireland for example that was a victim of colonialism itself is such a firm attacker of Israel?

 

The national ethos of countries can change over time. America today isn't exterminating native Americans based on Manifest Destiny. Britain isn't colonising India or Africa. If anything, many former colonial countries oppose nation-building due to this historic backdrop. 

Israel's allies are Western countries since a secondary effect of Israel's founding was a "safe" country in the Middle East. Whilst Saudi Arabia is a US ally, it's not democratic. Israel is a Jewish state but it is a "point" country in the region for the West. 

[bebotalk]

The US pullout of Afghanistan was achieved via international law. Maybe educate yourself before waffling nonsense lol.