Why doesnt the West, especially the US, abandon Israel?

[Leo Gura]

The people who run militaries are not progressives or SJWs. They have their own kind of group-think.

[Basman]

17 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

You definitely abandon an ally that is commiting  genocide and broken all the norms that you claim to have built your society on. Not to mention totally damaging your reputation and downright murdering your own citizens.

Israel is a middle eastern country with a right wing government that is on the edge of fascisms. 

If the West cared about democracies then it would cut ties with Israel until they got their shit together and elected a liberal democracy that respects human rights and respects international law. Not to mention putting people in jail for social media posts against its narrative or shutting down media they do not like.

Fundamentally its support should be based on behavior not on "we are democracy". A democracy that does not respect any international laws is worthless.

 

In your opinion.

[Karmadhi]

18 minutes ago, Basman said:

In your opinion.

If having free elections is all that matters then ok.

Personally a country that does not respect fundamental human rights is not Western value based but as you said that is subjective opinion on what is a democracy or not.

But from I have seen it is objectively clear that Israel does no near respect human rights compared to Western countries. There is not much up for debate there.

At least regarding West Bank.

Edited April 5 by Karmadhi

[royce]

5 hours ago, Porphyry Fedotov said:

The US supports Israel because it strategically benefits the US, it's as simple as that. Israel is akin to a huge American military base in the Middle East which it can use to push its interests.
Look at another ally of the US - Saudi Arabia and the atrocities they're committing towards Yemenites. That's geopolitics for ya. Human Rights organisations (Amnesty International etc) have been speaking out about Apartheid in Israel, ethnic cleansings and displacement of natives in illegally occupied Palestine for decades. What collective West have been doing about it? Nothing

The West doesn't care about human rights violations and war crimes as long as it gains something from it. 

Almost Every Arab  country has a us base in it , the biggest one in Qatar ( aljazeera ) , propaply you can say that easly  : The  Middle East is a Big Millitary Base for America 

Edited April 5 by royce

[Basman]

6 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

If having free elections is all that matters then ok.

Personally a country that does not respect fundamental human rights is not Western value based but as you said that is subjective opinion on what is a democracy or not.

But from I have seen it is objectively clear that Israel does no near respect human rights compared to Western countries. There is not much up for debate there.

At least regarding West Bank.

It is just a matter of priorities. It is fine to feel upset. War is hell.

[Karmadhi]

11 minutes ago, Basman said:

It is just a matter of priorities. It is fine to feel upset. War is hell.

What priorities? I am talking about their actions before this war. Like killing peaceful protestors in Gaza some years ago because "We could not put them all in jail". Countless stuff like this, which I do not see happening in any Western country. I did not see UK do anything like this to ireland for example. Why?

Edited April 5 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

46 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The people who run militaries are not progressives or SJWs. They have their own kind of group-think.

How come then the military of Russia, USA, UK, Israel all break international law in different degrees when they fight in wars.

I have not seen USA, Russia or UK do man made famines for examples in the recent wars they fought nor kill multiple times more civilians that soldiers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_intervention_in_the_Syrian_civil_war

You can see in all these wars involving Russia, France, UK or USA you had more soldiers killed than civilians.

In Gaza it is like 5 times more civilians than soldiers.

 

Edited April 5 by Karmadhi

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

You don't just abandon an ally over what amounts to social injustice essentially.

I can understand why the US can choose not to help Israel.

Why do they have to fund a genocide?

If you have  strong friend and you see him killing someone. Do you go kill more people with him simply because you two were strong friends? The least you can do is to run away.

But the united states, the torch bearers of democracy & freedom and LGBTQ, is doing the killing.

I really don't care what Israel does. It's a lost cause. They can do whatever they want.

Only what the US is doing. 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

How come Ireland for example that was a victim of colonialism itself is such a firm attacker of Israel?

Check the distribution of the Jewish diaspora. All those nation states complicit & aiding in genocide had a high number of jews compared to, say, Ireland. 

[Bobby_2021]

6 hours ago, Porphyry Fedotov said:

The US supports Israel because it strategically benefits the US, it's as simple as that.

Can you tell me what is is that the US actually gained from having relationship with Israel?

US got nothing but setbacks from having relationships with them.

Please don't say arm sales. Every country buys weapons from US. 

Edited April 5 by Bobby_2021

[Leo Gura]

46 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How come then the military of Russia, USA, UK, Israel all break international law in different degrees when they fight in wars.

Survival. The job of the military is to serve its tribe, not international law.

The world is not developed far enough for international law to trump national law.

Edited April 5 by Leo Gura

[Basman]

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

What priorities? I am talking about their actions before this war. Like killing peaceful protestors in Gaza some years ago because "We could not put them all in jail". Countless stuff like this, which I do not see happening in any Western country. I did not see UK do anything like this to ireland for example. Why?

The role of the military is not justice or equity but the monopolization of violence of a given territory. That's it. Control and security. The US military will always prioritize the security of its allies more than that of a non-ally.

War crimes committed against Gaza isn't really the US military's problem to a certain extent. They are a non-western group culturally and politically. You have to appreciate that the military in a general sense is a hammer and it sees all issues as nails. It is not the full picture of a government.

And with all that said, despite the US aiding Israel, they are the biggest contributor to abating civilian collateral when Israel conducts its bombings. But you can only do so much when you are not the one behind the gun.

 

[bebotalk]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

In your opinion.

It should be the norm and standard. 

The West abandoned South Africa for apartheid. It does actively place sanctions on countries that abuse its people. If Israel is proven to be conducting genocide in Gaza, then it puts them in a difficult position. 

[bebotalk]

2 hours ago, Basman said:

You don't just abandon an ally over what amounts to social injustice essentially.

The US is the primary custodian of the western world militarily, so it has to help protect democratic and western countries. The alternative would be a rescinding of western influence and other powers would fill in that vacuum, which is unacceptable when survival is prioritized.

I disagree. Countries that are not aligned with the rules-based order that the West has established can and have been sidelined. 

[bebotalk]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival. The job of the military is to serve its tribe, not international law.

The world is not developed far enough for international law to trump national law.

Who enters into international law? it's countries. Countries sign up to such in good faith. Militaries are arms of the state, and thus states abide by international law. Do they do it perfectly? Not always, no more than individuals follow criminal or civil law. 

[royce]

28 minutes ago, bebotalk said:

Who enters into international law? it's countries. Countries sign up to such in good faith. Militaries are arms of the state, and thus states abide by international law. Do they do it perfectly? Not always, no more than individuals follow criminal or civil law. 

This is cool, But Unfortunately this not how the world works , maybe in next 50 years maybe more 

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival. The job of the military is to serve its tribe, not international law.

The world is not developed far enough for international law to trump national law.

@Leo Gura The question is why do they break international law in *different* degrees. 

No one has committed acts like Israel is doing right now with full backing of US. Even totalitarian fascists right wing states have not done any genocide of this scale anytime ever. It's always the "progressive democracies". 

Edited April 5 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

If you haven't already noticed, I have officially changed my position on Israel Gaza crisis.

Much of my initial support of Israel was because I emotionally identified with Israel and emphasized with them and how I would react if I was subjected to such brutality. I usually analyse and understand the situation before reacting, but the sheer amount of disinformation and emotionally charged propaganda and lies from both sides meant that I couldn't reach any worthwhile conclusion. So I didn't do any digging for a while. 

Now the emotionally charged passionately protesting crowd has rather died down and Truth is brimming to the surface.

The Truth is that what Israel is doing right now is completely disconnected from what they said they would in the beginning. They have blocked food trucks, and even started shooting innocent civilians who were gathering to collect the food. The air dropped food has been falling on top of people and killing them in the process.

Even worse the children arriving at the dilapidated hospitals with no electricity are getting their surgeries done with no anesthesia. Just imagine a doctor operating on your skull with no anesthesia. They are using vinegar and stuff to care for the wounded. Children are crying for their lives has their limbs amputated and in starving.

How will the world ever forgive Israel and the US? They are fooling themselves if they think there will be no consequence for this. 

I don't think the Israel will change it's position because they are incredibly biased, powerful, and extraordinarily intelligent. These are a deadly combination on top of other things. 

The best we can do is to get the US to stop funding the war on the US taxpayers money, let alone getting Israel to stop the war. That is a good enough step at the moment. It's terrible we have had to witness this criminal war in the 21st century. 

[Nivsch]

8 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

started shooting innocent civilians who were gathering to collect the food

Link?

8 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

no electricity are getting their surgeries done with no anesthesia

Yes Israel is to blame in everything happen in Gaza. Not hamas who brought them to sub conditions for years and now contributes to this too in this war.

Edited April 5 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

38 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

they are incredibly biased, powerful, and extraordinarily intelligen

The ultra right wing government* 

Sorry that we needed to become powerful to survive against 6 arab countries.

Edited April 5 by Nivsch

[Bobby_2021]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Link?

 

 

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Yes Israel is to blame in everything happen in Gaza. Not hamas who brought them to sub conditions for years and now in this war. This is an unfair unbalanced position.

Yeah Hamas is to be given blame.

But for how long?

How much more bombings?

How many more children has to lose their limbs and starve to death? 

How many more skull surgeries should happen without basic medication and anaesthesia? 

I will accept whatever number you give me. Just make it clear what your end goal is. I will accept it wholeheartedly.

Also to be clear: My disagreements is with US, not Israel. I see Israel as just another middle eastern country. They can do whatever they want.