Why doesnt the West, especially the US, abandon Israel?

[Thought Art]

Just now, Nivsch said:

So the west is selfish evil and Palestinians who hang gays and cooperators on electric polls are victims? That simple? Help me understand this logic guys.

It’s more nuanced than that. There is in reality no “good guy bad guy” as each nation has its own element of level of development, level of selfishness. No one is saying what you say here. 
 

The good guy, really depends on who you are and who you align with for your survival. 

[Nivsch]

4 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I recently heard many Israeli are secular Jews, is this not true?

~ 45% of Israelis are secular Jews

~20% traditional not so religious

~14% tradinional tend to religious

~11% religious

~11% ultra orthodox

By a poll done in 2022.

[Thought Art]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

~ 45% of Israelis are secular Jews

~20% traditional not so religious

~14% tradinional tend to religious

~11% religious

~11% ultra orthodox

By a poll done in 2022.

Thank you for sharing. I think Leo maybe wrong about these “religious nutcases”. 
 

Let me know if I am wrong.

Zionist, Israeli Jews and their supporters want Israel is exist, for Jews to have their own country, and to be safe. But, they unfortunately have enemies which neighbour them which is an existential threat to the project of creating a safe and flourishing country and homeland for Israeli people, who are good decent Modern and educated people, am correct?

Therefore US support, the destruction of Hamas, and even the unfortunate loss of civilian life is worth it for the good of civilized and peaceful modern existence of Israel and its allies.

Edited April 5 by Thought Art

[Bobby_2021]

Every other country in the world buys weapons from the US in billions.

That's not a strategic partner. That's normal trade. 

US is not dirt poor that it needs Israel to buy it's weapons else it will go broke. 

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is little pain from the US side. The pain is all outsourced overseas.

Biden losing the election is not enough of a pain for you?

Their entire narrative is lgbtq and women's rights.

Sure, that sits well will financing a genocide. That too on the brim of a new election. 

[bebotalk]

Israel was created in small part as a Western bastion in the Middle East. 

But there is no firm evidence of genocide of yet. If there were, i'd imagine to save face that Israel would be sanctioned or punished. 

[Nivsch]

6 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Thank you for sharing. I think Leo maybe wrong about these “religious nutcases”. 
 

Let me know if I am wrong.

Zionist, Israeli Jews and their supporters want Israel is exist, for Jews to have their own country, and to be safe. But, they unfortunately have enemies which neighbour them which is an existential threat to the project of creating a safe and flourishing country and homeland for Israeli people, who are good decent Modern and educated people, am correct?

Therefore US support, the destruction of Hamas, and even the unfortunate loss of civilian life is worth it for the good of civilized and peaceful modern existence of Israel and its allies.

I wish (like you I think) that Israel will find a way to fight terror organization in Gaza or in Lebanon without much civilian losses. But people here overly and sometimes I feel cruelty judge a situation they don't need to really deal with.

Edited April 5 by Nivsch

[Thought Art]

5 minutes ago, bebotalk said:

Israel was created in small part as a Western bastion in the Middle East. 

But there is no firm evidence of genocide of yet. If there were, i'd imagine to save face that Israel would be sanctioned or punished. 

I learned it was created largely with support of Britain who controlled Palestine after world war 1 or 2? 
 

No Muslim nation could even imagine how well educated and connected these Israeli are. Israel will exist, it will not be defeated and it will win. No matter how much people may cry for “social justice”.

They would cry the same if Hamas was able to do what it wants to Israel. It’s just a brutal truth that this conflict is ugly.

Edited April 5 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

Just now, Nivsch said:

I wish like you that Israel will find a way to fights terror organization in Gaza or in Lebanon with out much civilian losses. But people here overly and sometimes I feel cruelty judge a situation they don't need to really face with.

I know I have often posted in a way to show my pain around the loss of civilian life. But, remember it will take me time to see the whole situation. Please do not see me as against Israel defending itself. This situation is complicated and I am but a child. 

[Nivsch]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I know I have often posted in a way to show my pain around the loss of civilian life. But, remember it will take me time to see the whole situation. Please do not see me as against Israel defending itself. This situation is complicated and I am but a child. 

Thanks, all good 🌼 I appreciate it.

Edited April 5 by Nivsch

[Thought Art]

Just now, Nivsch said:

Thanks, all good 🌼

Stay well friend.

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But US policy is not based on social justice, it is based on survival

This is such an intellectually lazy argument. Why does anyone do anything? It's survival. That's the answer to anything. You are not saying anything here. 

If US had no regards to social justice, then it wouldn't have made it illegal to use foreign aid to fund a genocide. 

We know pretty well that the US and EU were willing to take plenty of pain to punish Russia. That lead to inflation all across the world.

Even now all we are asking is to stop sending FREE aid to the Israel. That's solely because jews bribe them into changing their foreign policy.

Israel bullies the US into a pro Israel voice at the UN. When something comes against Israel, US is expected to use it's veto power to block it.

If something comes in favour of Israel, US is expected to push it hard. Even abstaining from it is protested by Israel. 

This is like that love hate relationship where Israel is abusing US for money by domination and manipulation. 

Is it characteristic of US to finance a genocide for survival? This is going to threaten their survival if any, by triggering a wider was in the middleast. 

[bebotalk]

40 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I learned it was created largely with support of Britain who controlled Palestine after world war 1 or 2? 
 

No Muslim nation could even imagine how well educated and connected these Israeli are. Israel will exist, it will not be defeated and it will win. No matter how much people may cry for “social justice”.

They would cry the same if Hamas was able to do what it wants to Israel. It’s just a brutal truth that this conflict is ugly.

Yes, hence why I said in small part, since it was and is a Jewish state. However, it is one of the few democracies in the region, so it is a counterweight to the other states somewhat. 

[ExplorerMystic]

@Karmadhi Money & Power . The way they are carrying out genocide in Palestine without any resistance . Western media has oppose it initially but they have to show & accept that yes there is genocide happening in Palestine due to tiny bit of independent journalist sneaking in & showing the world the actual reality on the ground .

Off topic : These independent journalist & Aid workers are real heroes of our generations. It is one highest form of  spirituality in action where you get out of your survival instinct and put your life on the line .Spirituality in action what matters in the end. Love & compassion with its different stream (Infinite) is one of the hardest to concur on this path.

Without a solid backup / presence among politician / lobby of Western countries it is not possible. Are they going to stop until the there goal is achieved ; No . 

Not all Jewish people are Zionist . Most of them are opposing it but money and power has its impact . As with Islam ; Radicalized are very tiny proportion which represent it but see the impact on common people. Most of them hate people of this faith. Right now hate against Jew is on rise as well. The reason is same.

As you mentioned that foreign aid worker are being killed . Western politician arena condemning it but underneath they are saying "OK we will make some drama / twist / turn it around, but you go on". They know how to manipulate masses but it is becoming sophisticated where you deny & condemn something on front but underneath continue with the agenda you have. Without Money ; Power ; Financial interest. This is impossible.  

 

Edited April 6 by ExplorerMystic

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

I learned it was created largely with support of Britain who controlled Palestine after world war 1 or 2? 
 

No Muslim nation could even imagine how well educated and connected these Israeli are. Israel will exist, it will not be defeated and it will win. No matter how much people may cry for “social justice”.

They would cry the same if Hamas was able to do what it wants to Israel. It’s just a brutal truth that this conflict is ugly.

Unfortunately this is not true, both pro and anti Israel intellectuals are predicting Israel is on the road to disintegration, and it may take the rest of the world with them 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because Israel is a country built on "western values" and Palestine is not.

And because of religious alignment.

Regarding religion, the West are Christians while Israelis are Jews. Not the same religion. Christians murdered and persecuted Jews probably as much if not more than they did Muslims historically. There was no historical love for these two religions. Why now?

Regarding values, it is true that Israel is a democracy but for countless years they violate human rights all the time and even have been accused of apartheid. The way they are prosecuting this war goes against all Western values and International law.

Why does not the West realize at least now that Israel is not 'one of them" but instead a much more brutal selfish state and decide to distance itself from it.  Why give them a blank license to do things, they themselves would not do or do not believe in?

I did not see Western countries trial kids in military courts, put people in jail without trial, shoot journalists etc.

These are stuff dictatorships do, not democracies.

I have seen some Western countries like Ireland, Spain and to some extent Belgium, Norway take concerete actions to distance themselves and denounce Israel harshly. Especially Ireland and Spain.

Why dont the other big Western countries like France, Germany, UK, USA do the same?

 

Edited April 5 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel's selfish and closedminded foreign policy is outdone only by the US.

Why its foreign policy closedminded?

Edit: If you mean to the way it manages the conflict with the Palestinians so yes its limited. I thought you are talking about other things.

Edited April 5 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

57 minutes ago, Raze said:

Unfortunately this is not true, both pro and anti Israel intellectuals are predicting Israel is on the road to disintegration, and it may take the rest of the world with them 

This is true that our society faced serious inner clashes a year ago, when extremist right wingers tried to reform the courte leaded by Netayahu's conflict of interests in this issue, but this war turned back this trend to a much more united society.

Edited April 5 by Nivsch

[Basman]

You don't just abandon an ally over what amounts to social injustice essentially.

The US is the primary custodian of the western world militarily, so it has to help protect democratic and western countries. The alternative would be a rescinding of western influence and other powers would fill in that vacuum, which is unacceptable when survival is prioritized.

[Karmadhi]

10 minutes ago, Basman said:

You don't just abandon an ally over what amounts to social injustice essentially.

You definitely abandon an ally that is commiting  genocide and broken all the norms that you claim to have built your society on. Not to mention totally damaging your reputation and downright murdering your own citizens.

10 minutes ago, Basman said:

The US is the primary custodian of the western world militarily, so it has to help protect democratic and western countries. The alternative would be a rescinding of western influence and other powers would fill in that vacuum, which is unacceptable when survival is prioritized.

Israel is a middle eastern country with a right wing government that is on the edge of fascisms. 

If the West cared about democracies then it would cut ties with Israel until they got their shit together and elected a liberal democracy that respects human rights and respects international law. Not to mention putting people in jail for social media posts against its narrative or shutting down media they do not like.

Fundamentally its support should be based on behavior not on "we are democracy". A democracy that does not respect any international laws is worthless.

 

Edited April 5 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

So the west is selfish evil and Palestinians who hang gays and cooperators on electric polls are victims? That simple? Help me understand this logic guys.

Not evil but I think Western leaders, especially the older ones have a subconscious tolerance for colonialism and ethnic cleansing since they come from countries that did it historically at a grand scale. All Israel hard allies either were colonialist powerhouses or are built on colonialism itself (USA).

How come Ireland for example that was a victim of colonialism itself is such a firm attacker of Israel?