Naive Realism Actually Makes Sense.

[Parki]

Literally there is nothing outside my experience,
so when I don't look at my hands - I have no hands,
but I have a thought that I have do have the hands,
and reality behaves the exact way sa the thought is saying,
so I can treat this thought as real, even if it's not.
From this perspective naive realism makes perfect sense.

I am on that "Naive realism is wrong" side, but
could you debunk it for me, cuz I can't see it.

[Martin123]

@Parki If you adopted the thought of your hands being able to change colours, and hammered it into your being enough (this would take you a lifetime of daily insanely dedicated practice) they would change colours.
Reality is orchestrated in ways so it appears naively realistic. Thats the challenge of the 3rd dimension. To see through the well orchestrated play. 

[Leo Gura]

@Parki By framing it that way, you're actually describing idealism or phenomenalism.

The naive realist believes that what he sees corresponds to an external world behind the scenes, which he thinks looks and works very much the way he sees it.

[TJ Reeves]

In super simple terms, naive realism is similar to living a regular life in the matrix and not recognizing that the matrix (read: the ego) exists in the way that it does.

This classic scene from the matrix demonstrates the mind of a person who gives into the idealist perspective as you and leo describe. In the above scene, we see that cypher intellectually understands that things are 'not real', but he still doesn't get it. He has the potential to have the powers of Neo (read: achieve enlightenment) but his ego/clinginess-to-the-known prevents him from truly attaining the power/peace he seeks. Cypher almost perfectly symbolizes the claim that the naive realist perspective makes sense. 

With reference to the latest video on the hero's journey, Cypher is the person who attempts to achieve enlightenment but still cling to the ego.

On the other hand, Neo/the one/jesus/buddha/the classic hero represents the person who truly grasps the nature of reality at an experiential, intuitive level, not just an intellectual one. 

Neo is also someone who gives himself fully to the world as himself. By the end of the series he goes as far as sacrificing his body to the matrix once he recognizes that there is nothing to be afraid of. 

Neo has his powers because he realizes that he literally is the matrix - both the regular and 'underground' portions. He sees that no matter where he goes, it is yet another constructed reality that he is a part of. He IS the machine that's creating the problems. He IS agent smith. He IS everything he sees.  As such, he is able to manipulate his world at will, even when he leaves the regular matrix. This is very similar to how @Martin123 said you could change the color of your hands if you truly wanted to.

Notice how in the matrix one can download complex thoughts and how-to's very easily. For example, Trinity could download the ability to fly a helicopter in under 2 seconds. If this is true, why doesn't everybody just download the ability to become the one then? Because there is no ability to put the capital T Truth into words or theoretical understanding. The Truth that one is infinity would only be grasped by understanding infinity, but you cannot write infinity into a code that could be downloaded (or written in a forum post) for it it would take infinitely long.

We cling to the phenomenal perspective because we have not had enough direct experience with the ultimate truth of our dream-construct-reality... but it is possible to loosen ourselves from the naive and 100% phenomenal perspectives if we accept the call, find a mentor, and dig deep on our own. (and probably find some high quality psychedelics.).

Basically nothing I, Leo, Jesus, the buddha, or anyone says will ever make one snap out of the surface level naive-realist or strong idealist perspective. Enlightenment must be gathered through deep work/meditation/psychedelic experimentation. That is the only thing that would 'debunk' the other two perspectives. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Treeves4u
Grammar

[FirstglimpseOMG]

It is very very strange, the whole naive realism paradigm! Again, I grasp it to the nth degree intellectually, but need to consistently do the work in order to begin realizing it all empirically for my spiritually and reality-curious 'self'. It's a big flip!

[Ramu]

You are Consciousness and the only thing that exists as reality is right in front of you.  Moving deeper, once ego is destroyed you become reality.  It also helps to see this when you understand that you have never seen your face or head.   Everything else including what goes through reality, (you) goes into the void when not directly experienced.  On one level I understand that existentially I am Source.  On the stage of life, I am Eric.  Just an ordinary person.  The truth is I will always be spirit for eternity, no matter if formless or manifesting as form.  Enjoy the form you are and respect your body and treat it well.  Your form is one of the most miraculous and beautiful things You ever made.  You are SO creative and loving.

[FirstglimpseOMG]

Very strange indeed. So new. Funny to close your eyes and into the void it goes, until you walk forward with hands outstretched 'til your fingers touch the wall. Boom it's back!

Very strange to know that if I walk down the road, with music blaring in my earbuds, there's literally nothing behind me 'til I turn around. What!? The guy ahead of me has nothing behind him until he turns around, then he sees a street and me. The guy behind me has no street behind him, but he has the street in front of him that's behind me that I don't have. 

And it doesn't get any weirder when your buddy or your kid leaves the room, nope, not weird at all...

[Ramu]

@FirstglimpseOMG Its strange to think when I leave my condo in the morning, my condo and all of my posessions remain concepts only.  Based on that alone, its no wonder people seldom get on the Path.

[FirstglimpseOMG]

How ultimately fascinating once you grasp it though, eh? I'll spend the rest of my life trying to taste that knowledge as experience. Really getting it and working with it is a super-power that I shall possess, bwa ha ha haaaa...    (oops)

Seriously though, I love the challenge of 'reality'-busting and am intrigued beyond measure.

Understanding Leo Gura's video on Naive Realism was an 'aha' moment for me that tied in two or three other non-dual Truths that were clashing. Freakin' awesome. Like, the literal 'awesome', holee!