Pedestalization of Gurus/Teachers Is Bullcrap

[r0ckyreed]

39 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

conversely get on the ground and kiss the feet of the ones who have paved the way

you were sinking without a clue

and they stepped in

and rescued you

don't keep lying that all those deep insights you have are yours

you were nothing and someone took pity

Not true at all. With everything I have ever learned, my mind will interpret any teaching in my own unique way.

The teaching of no-self, for instance, will not have the same meaning for everyone. 

This is a flaw in your thinking because insights do not belong to anybody. Every insight ever received came from the Self. Other people have an influence, but we do not have the same insight.

I attained many of my insights independent of any teacher. It is a contradiction to say the insights aren’t mine because the very definition of an insight is that it comes from me. If it doesn’t come from me, it is education, indoctrination, or belief.

By that very logic, we could say that nobody owns an idea because language was invented by a group of people long ago. Even though, I didn’t invent the English language doesn’t mean that any thought I have in English can’t be original. 

[gettoefl]

2 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

Not true at all. With everything I have ever learned, my mind will interpret any teaching in my own unique way.

The teaching of no-self, for instance, will not have the same meaning for everyone. 

This is a flaw in your thinking because insights do not belong to anybody. Every insight ever received came from the Self. Other people have an influence, but we do not have the same insight.

I attained many of my insights independent of any teacher. It is a contradiction to say the insights aren’t mine because the very definition of an insight is that it comes from me. If it doesn’t come from me, it is education, indoctrination, or belief.

By that very logic, we could say that nobody owns an idea because language was invented by a group of people long ago. Even though, I didn’t invent the English language doesn’t mean that any thought I have in English can’t be original. 

have respect for those who brought you the light, there is no awakening alone, everything is interconnected and all else is egoic grandiosity, you have been saved 1000s of lifetimes just by finding this forum

[Yimpa]

Do not put AI on a pedestal, either.

[Jowblob]

1 hour ago, gettoefl said:

conversely get on the ground and kiss the feet of the ones who have paved the way

you were sinking without a clue

and they stepped in

and rescued you

don't keep lying that all those deep insights you have are yours

you were nothing and someone took pity

Indeed, you all should watch your words. Everything is god, guru is god. When the time comes to be saved , you're gonna be begging

[r0ckyreed]

6 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Do not put AI on a pedestal, either.

Beat me to it. Was gonna come back to say this includes ChatGPT. You have to always contemplate how you know any information you receive is true even if it is from Harvard or ChatGPT or any source you consider credible.

[r0ckyreed]

The ultimate guru is yourself. I have spent years listening to others, but it was after listening to my own intuition was when I reached my highest levels of growth.

We are all faced with two choices of being leaders or followers. The only reason we put these spiritual gurus on pedestals is that they were able to do what we have not yet. They were able to seek the answers through their own innate faculties. If the Buddha learned all he learned through Jesus, then we would be praising Jesus and not Buddha. The only reason people put these guys on pedestals is because they were able to independently derive these insights for themselves and develop self-leadership. We all influence each other. But this doesn’t mean that we do not each have innate knowledge of God. We do.

Edited March 30 by r0ckyreed

[Nemra]

30 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

have respect for those who brought you the light

That can be a trap.

[r0ckyreed]

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

That can be a trap.

Correct. Nobody can bring you into the light but yourself. People can encourage you and motivate you, but the answer to enlightenment can only be found inside. Only you can walk that path and nobody else can do it for you. Others can preach all about that and you can listen to them all you want. But at some point, it all becomes a distraction from looking within. All a spiritual teacher is doing is pointing to a place inside yourself. The biggest mistake is looking at their finger instead of going to where they are pointing. This over-reliance on others is bullcrap co-dependency.

Edited March 30 by r0ckyreed

[Thought Art]

Only God needs a Guru

God Needs no Guru

The paradox 

[Schizophonia]

"Think by yourself" is an illusion.

You are still biased, these gurus are just more advanced and they are bigger packages of information.
There's nothing stopping you from making your own salad, it's not like you're going to think everything your guru thinks.

[r0ckyreed]

25 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

You are still biased, these gurus are just more advanced and they are bigger packages of information.

Lol. Your guru is so full of biases and tricked you into thinking they are advanced.

 

26 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

There's nothing stopping you from making your own salad, it's not like you're going to think everything your guru thinks.

The only thing stopping you from making your own salad is kissing your gurus feet to make it for you. If there is nothing stopping me, then I wouldn’t need to give my authority away.

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

Only God needs a Guru

God Needs no Guru

The paradox 

That no paradox. That is a contradiction. Your first statement is false but your second one is half true. God has no needs. God is the guru.

[Ishanga]

Firstly when it comes to Spirituality words really mean nothing, all the stuff being written here today or the last week, will be replaced with more and more threads, talking back and forth, words being misinterpreted, misused and mistaken! Spirituality is beyond all of these words, so whether You say it or I say it, or anyone says it, ppl can do what they want, if they need to learn a lesson they will, if they have learned the lessons and still want to be a Devotee, who are You to tell them otherwise!!  One persons pedestal is Another persons God!

Edited March 30 by Ishanga

[Thought Art]

5 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

That no paradox. That is a contradiction. Your first statement is false but your second one is half true. God has no needs. God is the guru.

Okay sure, let's just take a baby and give it no guidance. Psh. 

Babies are God too.

Babies need people to raise them.

People in our culture, generally requires teachers at first. 

We can't do anything really without education.

Try doing math without it?

Try learning about psychedelics, or meditation, or how to read and write without someone first teaching you....

YOU CAN"T!

Because, it took humans thousands of years to learn this stuff and they had to learn and teach one another. That is still God.

Yet, you are God.

The paradox is literally your life. 

At the same time God, being all knowing and all powerful needs no Guru because God is imagining all guru. But, right now, as a human... Most things need to be taught. However, we can go beyond this. Now that we have our basic programming we can go beyond. But, you have to grow through that. God is imagining it's limitation and how it become aware of finite aspects of itself in this human dream... it does and making that seem very real.

Most people do not even bother learn, and see how disgusting their lives are.

You as God in this dream require many different types of learning and thinking. Some is yin, some is yang. Some is from other, other is from self. Both are Self. But, thats the beauty of it. 

It's a paradox, both can be addressed.

Edited March 31 by Thought Art

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Okay sure, let's just take a baby and give it no guidance. Psh. 

Babies are God too.

Babies need people to raise them.

People in our culture, generally requires teachers at first. 

We can't do anything really without education.

Try doing math without it?

Try learning about psychedelics, or meditation, or how to read and write without someone first teaching you....

YOU CAN"T!

Because, it took humans thousands of years to learn this stuff and they had to learn and teach one another. That is still God.

Yet, you are God.

The paradox is literally your life. 

At the same time God, being all knowing and all powerful needs no Guru because God is imagining all guru. But, right now, as a human... Most things need to be taught. However, we can go beyond this. Now that we have our basic programming we can go beyond. But, you have to grow through that. God is imagining it's limitation and how it become aware of finite aspects of itself in this human dream... it does and making that seem very real.

Most people do not even bother learn, and see how disgusting their lives are.

You as God in this dream require many different types of learning and thinking. Some is yin, some is yang. Some is from other, other is from self. Both are Self. But, thats the beauty of it. 

It's a paradox, both can be addressed.

Thanks for the clarification. I do agree that we are influenced and require some level of indoctrination. Not all indoctrination is bad like you said with learning math and language. We couldn't have this convo without some level of indoctrination and influence from others. However, I want to be clear about the language we are using to articulate points because a guru means spiritual teacher, and technically, they are not required to awaken. People have awakened without them. But I think your other points still stand to be valid. Thanks for your insight.

I would revise your original statement to:

"Only ego "needs" a teacher

God needs no teacher

God created the ego

God created the paradox"

 

[Thought Art]

@r0ckyreed Maharishi speaks of this. 
 

He notes that each persons path is different. Some are more inclined to awaken alone and others with teachers/ guru. Regardless, the 4th state.
 

At the same time, don’t underestimate the importance of a guide or guru. 

 

I could not learn Qigong by myself. I could not learn to contemplate by myself without a guru I would need many life times. Which is why the knowledge is distributed to “others” and “guru”

However, going beyond the teacher, beyond frames leads to a level of work I cannot yet imagine.

The deepest awakenings as far as I know require some kind of practice , technique, substance, etc. All of which require the guidance of others. 
 

I think, taking back your sovereignty doesn’t mean you now ignore or disregard using resources. Instead you take full responsibility for your epistemic foundation, your level of consciousness and burden of direct experience.

I think a fool would think awakening is the only area of human develop as well. 
 

No human grows alone. 
However, if you fully awaken… you’re at a different level where you can see through the maya of a past or future, self or other. 

Edited March 31 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

There is no way I could have discovered the following without Leo:

1. Infinite Love

2. Perfection 

3. Infinity

4. Adversity Quotient 

5. God’s Mercy and Forgiveness

just to name a few

Without Leo, I also couldn’t have understood awakenings I had at younger ages which I often disregarded. 

[Ishanga]

The Biggest problem is we get trapped in the words, the methods and the path itself. When I taught martial arts, I saw this big time, ppl didn't want to come there to learn how to fight or defend ones self, they came because they got interested in the training itself, the path of sort of how to get the skill set..

So if that is true, then the person leading this, inventor of the method, the Guru/Teacher per say becomes the expert, the ego attaches to this, but ego is false self, like your image in the mirror its a reflection of You, not You... So once the methods and teachings do their job, which is too transform your interior, inner experience, are You still a slave to situations outside of Yourself, or can You master Your response, are you generally Peaceful every moment of every day (or do You like misery?), that is how You know the methods and teachings are working for You..

Forget these stupid words like God, Infinity or Imaginary, these mean nothing if Your depressed and can't get out of bed in the morning, but when Your High on Life, then You conditioning kick in and you go to what You know, these stupid words... Just use this stuff like getting into a car and going to the store, You don't talk about it so much, You just use it and then forget about it...

[r0ckyreed]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

@r0ckyreed Maharishi speaks of this. 
 

He notes that each persons path is different. Some are more inclined to awaken alone and others with teachers/ guru. Regardless, the 4th state.
 

At the same time, don’t underestimate the importance of a guide or guru. 

 

I could not learn Qigong by myself. I could not learn to contemplate by myself without a guru I would need many life times. Which is why the knowledge is distributed to “others” and “guru”

However, going beyond the teacher, beyond frames leads to a level of work I cannot yet imagine.

The deepest awakenings as far as I know require some kind of practice , technique, substance, etc. All of which require the guidance of others. 
 

I think, taking back your sovereignty doesn’t mean you now ignore or disregard using resources. Instead you take full responsibility for your epistemic foundation, your level of consciousness and burden of direct experience.

I think a fool would think awakening is the only area of human develop as well. 
 

No human grows alone. 
However, if you fully awaken… you’re at a different level where you can see through the maya of a past or future, self or other. 

You are absolutely right. In the beginning we need people. However, there comes a time when it is beneficial to begin to pave our own path. You go to school and study so to speak, but to live authentically, you have to find a way to make the information your own and develop your own insights. Learning from others is great. If we want to reach our full potential, we need to start thinking for ourselves and developing our own thoughts and insights about reality. We can learn from the Buddha, but at some point, we must leave the Buddha because there comes a point where you outgrow all that stuff or you stagnate. It is indeed a paradox. And a unique path for everyone. Everyone is your teacher. You are your own master.

[r0ckyreed]

One of my favorite blog posts:

https://www.actualized.org/insights/the-metamorphosis-of-my-work