Jews genocide

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

hamas goal is to destroy civilians lives....

Hamas goal is to destroy the state of Israel.

Just because they killed civilians does not mean their goal is anything else.

Also unfortunately in Israel every adult has to serve in the military which gives Hamas the idea that everyone 18+ has been in the IDF and has tortured/killed/oppressed Palestinians at some point.

They see them probably like retired Nazis.

I am not saying they are right just explaining their mindset.

At this point I also heavily despise Hamas for the situation.

Their stubborness is causing much suffering to the Palestinians.

Also their goal to destroy the state of Israel is totally not realistic and foolish.

If I could I would have them gone just like I would have the government of North Korea gone.

But destroying the whole of Gaza is a price too high and totally unacceptable.

Also I feel like most of it is just plain cruelty and not militarily effective.

To top if off with creating a massive famine.

If Israel was serious about this they would send people in the tunnels, that is how you realistically get them.

Destroying everything on the ground hurts civilians mostly.

Edited March 28 by Karmadhi

[Past-Philosopher-562]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

 Zionism can take up many forms and most of it is moderate, highly-reasonable, and peace-oriented. It is centered around the defense of the people and the building of the land. Yes, patriotic national values are part of Zionism. Jews need to stick together to be resilient, there is no way around that.  

Low Quality response . The Idea that you believe Zionism can take many forms and some form can be moderate and peaceful is laughable in a cheerleading way . If it happens , first , it is motivated using the more extreme hate toward Palestinians and Arabs and then as the full scale human sacrifice resumes and finishes as it has been done to former Palestinians who had the same experiences , Israel would call itself democratic just because they wiped out half populations across all timeline . Their survival strategies of existence entails annihilation of another race.
 

[royce]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@royce You don't have to read who you think is biased. Make your own claims.

Azmi Bishara said that the Israel society ( the left and right )  after October 7th  turned into a tribe , and he is so fucken right 

Edited March 28 by royce

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The IDF is very loose in who they consider as Hamas specifically for operational targets. Because they want to target as wide as they can get away with.

It's clearly the case if you look at the kind of strikes and attacks that the IDF does.

If there's even a hint that someone is associated with Hamas, they are bombed. The IDF has assassinated many Gazan journalists because "Hamas".

What you do is, you don't fire on people unless they are armed and posing an immediate threat to you.

IDF operating procedure is to fire first and ask questions later.

All of these you think this is IDF policy only in this war or also before?

I am not denying too loose actions from soldiers that are happening.

In the other hand I have never heard about an army that does or did a cleaner war in such a tough and dangerous field. Not that I dont think it doesn't need to be improved because it is.

But if you take out the current trauma response from the equation and look on the previous operations, I really don't think there is an army that did such diverse tactics (parachuted massages, knocks on roofs and more) to ensure civilians lives like IDF did.

Edited March 28 by Nivsch

[royce]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

All of these you think this is IDF policy only in this war or also before?

I am not denying too loose actions from soldiers that are happening.

In the other hand I have never heard about an army that does or did a cleaner war in such a tough and dangerous field. Not that I dont think it doesn't need to be improved because it is.

But if you take out the current trauma response from the equation and look on the previous operations, I really don't think there is an army that did such diversd tactics (parachuted massages, knocks on roofs and more) to ensure civilians lives like IDF did.

haha you are just defending your state again  , its so easy to bring to the table what your army did to the palestinies from day 1 to now , but i wont ,  continue on your propaganda bro maybe you will Convince somebody . good luck 

Edited March 28 by royce

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, royce said:

Azmi Bishara said that the Israel society ( the left and right )  after October 7th  turned into a tribe , and he is so fucken right 

Yes a great tribe with the most mutual help and worry to each other I have ever seen.

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, royce said:

haha you are just defending your state again  , its so easy to bring to the table what your army did to the palestinies from day 1 to now , but i wont ,  continue on your propaganda bro maybe you will Convince somebody . good luck 

You are invited to bring here examples you think on.

Edited March 28 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

All of these you think this is IDF policy only in this war or also before?

I think this attitude has been held for a long time by top leadership and also those on the ground.

Some of it may be explicit verbalized policy, but mostly I think it's a general attitude of: "Lets do as much damage to the Palestinians as we can get away with. Shoot first, ask questions later. Anything that undermines the Zionist agenda must be destroyed."

This is the fundamental problem with Zionism. Zionism puts Zionism as the highest goal, not morality, truth, or justice. With such a philosophy evil must occur. Because anything is justified as long as it promotes Zionism. You can kill babies for the sake of Zionism and feel that you are doing nothing wrong because you have made Zionism your God.

But Zionism is not God.

Quote

I am not denying too loose actions from soldiers that are happening.

I think it goes all the way to the top. The top is pushing to inflict as much pressure as possible in every way possible.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[royce]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Yes a great tribe with the most mutual help and worry to each other I have ever seen.

A primitive tribe wants to kill the stranger 

[royce]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

You are invited to give examples you think on and we will discuss on them.

🌹 Stage red emerges when you think you are in danger no matter how you think how devloped you are  

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, royce said:

A primitive tribe wants to kill the stranger 

I don't know. The education I got, that was the formal one, encouraged us to want peace. 

To say to you there wont be militant voices here? I can't. I am curious to know how would you react if your town was massacared and civilians from the massacare's country ware celebrate this with candies in their streets. Actully I am not curious becasue the answer is simple - of course you would dehumanized them.

Edited March 28 by Nivsch

[royce]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I don't know. The education I got, that was the formal one, encouraged us to want peace. 

To say to you there wont be militant voices here? I can't. I am curious to know how would you react if your town was massacared and civilians from the massacare's country ware celebrate this with candies in their streets. Actully I am not curious becasue the answer is simple - of course you would dehumanized them.

If my country doing a genocide after somthing like this i will understand why they are doing this , but for sure I'm not gonna defend and justify theire  actions , and thats the minimum if I'm powerless citizen 

[Nivsch]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think this attitude has been held for a long time by top leadership and also those on the ground.

Some of it may be explicit verbalized policy, but mostly I think it's a general attitude of: "Lets do as much damage to the Palestinians as we can get away with. Shoot first, ask questions later. Anything that undermines the Zionist agenda must be destroyed."

This is the fundamental problem with Zionism. Zionism puts Zionism as the highest goal, not morality, truth, or justice. With such a philosophy evil must occur. Because anything is justified as long as it promotes Zionism. You can kill babies for the sake of Zionism and feel that you are doing nothing wrong because you have made Zionism your God.

But Zionism is not God.

I think it goes all the way to the top. The top is pushing to inflict as much pressure as possible in every way possible.

I think this kind of thinking you described applies to the deep right wing.

In my surrounding circles of family and friends, education, meetings, even conversation within the party "yesh atid" (in the center-left sector) I like to discuss sometimes because they are very reasonable, I have never tackled this kind of talking like really.

Yes, in more broad circles I hear sometimes people who are not moral and have no problem to "destroy them all" even from people who I know they are good and sensitive people when I talk to them on private! But then I remember he was hiding in his home when terrorists came to his town in oct 7th and I really cannot blame him.

Edited March 28 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I think this kind of thinking you described applies to the deep right wing.

Obviously it does. But I think it's rampant within the government bureaucracy.

Even many leftist or centrist Israelis have a strong sense of national identity, Zionism, and patriotism. Because it benefits them.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I think this kind of thinking you described applies to the deep right wing.

Didnt they do polls in Israel where most people said enough or not enough force was being used. Few said that too much force was being used.

Also I saw non right wing people say they would not wage the war much differently.

 

[royce]

19 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I think this kind of thinking you described applies to the deep right wing.

In my surrounding circles of family and friends, education, meetings, even conversation within the party "yesh atid" (in the center-left sector) I like to discuss sometimes because they are very reasonable, I have never tackled this kind of talking like really.

Yes, in more broad circles I hear sometimes people who are not moral and have no problem to "destroy them all" even from people who I know they are good and sensitive people when I talk to them on private! But then I remember he was hiding in his home when terrorists came to his town in oct 7th and I really cannot blame him.

and in israel between you people you have a democracy you are choosing your prime minister not like the bananas kingdoms around you ,  and for 20 years you chose netenyahu , thats tells alot  bro , in the other way neteyahu allied with the dictators in the middle east and gained alot for isreal therfore you voted for him , 

Edited March 28 by royce

[Nivsch]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Even many leftist or centrist Israelis have a strong sense of national identity, Zionism, and patriotism. Because it benefits them.

But why not to have?

Is this a problem in your opinion? And why?

After all this Israeli identity is what, I think, protects women, LGBTQ and individual right. Without this identity I dont know how those values were able to be applied and protected.

Anyway the Center Left are always fully for two state solution, at least until oct 7th for sure. Now this is a bit more complicated I guess.

Edited March 28 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But why not to have?

Is this a problem in your opinion? And why?

It is a problem. Nationalism is a problem whenever the nation becomes a higher priority than truth and what is right.

If you love your own people too much it makes you too biased to operate properly in the world. Which then creates situations like Gaza.

See, ideally you would love Palestinians equal to Israelis, because the truth is that neither one of you is more important. If you think that Israelis are more important that other groups of people, that's a falsehood which will corrupt your whole understanding of reality.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, royce said:

and in israel between you people you have a democracy you are choosing your prime minister not like the bananas kingdoms around you ,  and for 20 years you chose netenyahu , thats tell alot  bro 

Our method is based on a coalition of diverse parties, not only from the deep right wing. Most of the time Netanyahu's coalition was a mixture which was more moderate in average.

Two years ago we had a different governemt for a short period. Also Netanyahu is very charismatic and know how to kidnapp the crowd.

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I think this attitude has been held for a long time by top leadership and also those on the ground.

Some of it may be explicit verbalized policy, but mostly I think it's a general attitude of: "Lets do as much damage to the Palestinians as we can get away with. Shoot first, ask questions later. Anything that undermines the Zionist agenda must be destroyed."

This is the fundamental problem with Zionism. Zionism puts Zionism as the highest goal, not morality, truth, or justice. With such a philosophy evil must occur. Because anything is justified as long as it promotes Zionism. You can kill babies for the sake of Zionism and feel that you are doing nothing wrong because you have made Zionism your God.

But Zionism is not God.

I think it goes all the way to the top. The top is pushing to inflict as much pressure as possible in every way possible.

   I agree, it's a combination of Zionism and Neoliberalism, the top 1-5% rulers propagating this ideology, and justifying all evils, sufferings and ignorance for the sake of Zionism's survival. Zionism is like the new form of Moloch where it's fine to do evil BS and worship because we can get away with it as we have the cover of the USA to some degree. Unfortunately Zionism is so entangled in American politics and government, just like it was with British Government then, plus many spy networks and connections to the elite class that they feel protected against criticism of all kinds, and it'll be very difficult to weed out Zionism by it's roots.