Realizing Reality

[Vajra]

I see that many people here think they have realized the truth.

Like - 'I am you', 'God is everything', 'Reality is infinite'.

Why should that be true?

What makes you think so?

I will likely get answers such as - 'no, no. you don't understand — I directly realize and experience it!' or 'dude, get the fuck out of here, you know nothing, of course God is The Only Thing.'

Well, I'm not necessarily here to argue with you about these points, I'm just saying... it seems like a lot of knowledge derived from meditative states, or psychedelic states, or spiritual insights etc.
That's nice and cool, but it's still knowledge. Isn't it?

I wonder if there is anyone out there who could prove to me, or show me, or convince me that they ACTUALLY REALIZE THE TRUTH.

Thanks. I think it will be nice to introduce this scepticism, and if your realization is real, it should hold its own against it. Tell me! Don't be shy

Love,

Vajra

[Leo Gura]

God is not knowledge. That's the cool part. If it was knowledge then it wouldn't be worth anything and we wouldn't be hyping it up.

No one can prove God to you, since God is more fundamental than proof.

You just have to open your mind to the possibility that there exists something beyond knowledge and proof.

Edited March 27 by Leo Gura

[Vajra]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

God is not knowledge. That's the cool part. If it was knowledge then it wouldn't be worth anything and we wouldn't be hyping it up.

No one can prove God to you, since God is more fundamental than proof.

You just have to open your mind to the possibility that there exists something beyond knowledge and proof.

Well that's cool, but I didn't really mean tell me how to experience God.

I meant if you are saying that you know God, or know the truth, how can I believe you? How can I know YOU are not bullshiting? How?

Got an answer for that?

THANKS

[aurum]

7 minutes ago, Vajra said:

I meant if you are saying that you know God, or know the truth, how can I believe you? How can I know YOU are not bullshiting? How?

You aren't suppose to believe Leo or anyone else here. That's the whole point.

Discover God for yourself. 

Practically speaking, there are many tools and practices that have been discussed at length for you to accomplish this. You will either do them and figure it out or not. Either way, your belief about it does not really matter as long as you are suffuciently open-minded to make a genuine effort.

[Vajra]

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

You aren't suppose to believe Leo or anyone else here. That's the whole point.

Discover God for yourself. 

Practically speaking, there are many tools and practices that have been discussed at length for you to accomplish this. You will either do them and figure it out or not. Either way, your belief about it does not really matter as long as you are suffuciently open-minded to make a genuine effort.

I didn't even say that I am not Realizing God.

I said that I don't know if you or Leo or someone else is too.

That's what I am asking about.

[Phil King]

22 minutes ago, Vajra said:

I meant if you are saying that you know God, or know the truth, how can I believe you? How can I know YOU are not bullshiting? How?

Got an answer for that?

You can really only know if someone is bullshitting about God if you yourself have already had multiple God realizations and higher awakenings. Anything else is pure speculation and mental masturbation

[Vajra]

1 minute ago, Phil King said:

You can really only know if someone is bullshitting about God if you yourself have already had multiple God realizations and higher awakenings. Anything else is pure speculation and mental masturbation

Hmmm. So you are saying that to 'have already had multiple God realizations and higher awakenings' will somehow give you the power to assess whether the words someone is sharing with you are coming from genuine God Realization or not?

If that's you, as in you had these awakening and can tell when someone is really God-Realized, tell me how that works please. I'd like to hear. That's precisely what I am asking about you guys.

Thank You

[Phil King]

@Vajra Ive had minor awakenings, but would definitely not call myself 'enlightened' or 'god realized' or whatever, but experiences of higher states allow me to see if there is any validity in what a person is saying. An example would be something like watching Leos videos on what God is, and then taking a high does psychedelic, contemplating what he said, and verifying the claims within my direct experience. 

Its a little more difficult on a forum since people could easily be parroting spiritual platitudes. 

^^ I like this series of interviews from Leo because I think these are the types of questions you need to ask to see if somebody is bullshitting. Listen to somebodys answers to these questions, contemplate them, and then attempt to see if they are verifyable in your own direct experience. Ultimately you are the only authority

[aurum]

22 minutes ago, Vajra said:

I didn't even say that I am not Realizing God.

I said that I don't know if you or Leo or someone else is too.

That's what I am asking about.

I see. So you want to know if other people are God-Realized and how you can verify that they've achieved certain realizations. 

In that case, the answer is that you mostly can't verify anyone's claims of God-Realization. But what you can do is to become God-Realized yourself so that it becomes more obvious when people don't know what they're talking about. You can also develop keener discernment around self-deception in general, so that you can better spot fraudsters. 

Also, I've found that deeper God-Realization leads to you caring much less about feeling the need to verify other people's awakenings in general. It's useful for practical purposes so you don't get duped by false teachers, but otherwise it doesn't really matter.

Edited March 27 by aurum

[Vajra]

@Phil King Thanks.

Seems to me that you verified that when you contemplate somebody's words on God or Enlightenment, you sometimes get direct experience which verifies for you 'God' or'Enlightenment'.

What I hear when you say that, is that you perhaps received a method from these people on how to contemplate or where to turn your mind to get these spiritual insights.

I have to say, that's not the same as realizing that the given person IS God-Realized or Enlightened. It's a subtle distinction, but it's ture.

Got it? 

[Vajra]

@aurum

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

In that case, the answer is that you mostly can't verify anyone's claims of God-Realization.

a) How do you know that? Maybe you simply didn't find a way yet. Maybe there is one.

3 minutes ago, aurum said:

Also, I've found that deeper God-Realization leads to you caring much less about feeling the need to verify other people's awakenings in general. It's useful for practical purposes so you don't get duped by false teachers, but otherwise it doesn't really matter.

b) Why not care? When you know, you can relate to these people more accurately. It's good to know whether a person is a man or a woman. It's important. Just in the same way, It might be relevant to know whether someone is actually God-Realized, or is only saying that.

 

Thank you for speaking.

[Phil King]

2 minutes ago, Vajra said:

I have to say, that's not the same as realizing that the given person IS God-Realized or Enlightened. It's a subtle distinction, but it's ture

Yeah I would agree its not the same. However, it may be the case that at the ultimate levels of awakening, any distinctions of an OTHER consciousness that could be God realized will fall away and you realize that it was always YOU all along attempting to direct yourself back to who you are.

[Vajra]

Just now, Phil King said:

Yeah I would agree its not the same. However, it may be the case that at the ultimate levels of awakening, any distinctions of an OTHER consciousness that could be God realized will fall away and you realize that it was always YOU all along attempting to direct yourself back to who you are.

In other words God is stupid and cannot distinguish between a God-Realized individual and one that's not?

Maybe... but maybe not.

Maybe God is Intelligent.

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Vajra said:

How can I know YOU are not bullshiting?

It's a weak question because you believe all sorts of stuff that humans tell you all the time.

How do you know anything humans tell you is real? You go out and test it for yourself.

I could be bullshitting you. Go find out. This work is not about believing me, it's about doing practices to have new experiences of reality.

Edited March 27 by Leo Gura

[Phil King]

1 minute ago, Vajra said:

In other words God is stupid and cannot distinguish between a God-Realized individual and one that's not?

Maybe... but maybe not.

Maybe God is Intelligent

lol Im not sure what you mean by this. Is it God being stupid or your ego being stupid?

[Vajra]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It's weak question because you believe all sorts of stuff that humans tell you all the time.

How do you know anything humans tell you is real? You go out and test it for yourself.

I could be bullshitting you. Go find out.

What I am saying is that if you ARE God-Realized, cannot there be a human or beyond-human way to communicate that to me without doubt?

You are essentially saying that there is no way you can communicate it to me without doubt.

THAT's a weak answer, I would say.

[Vajra]

1 minute ago, Phil King said:

lol Im not sure what you mean by this. Is it God being stupid or your ego being stupid?

"God has no ability to distinguish between a God-Realized individual and non-God-Realized individual."

— is that an expression of stupidity or intelligence?

Edited March 27 by Vajra

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Vajra said:

What I am saying is that if you ARE God-Realized, cannot there be a human or beyond-human way to communicate that to me without doubt?

You are essentially saying that there is no way you can communicate it to me without doubt.

THAT's a weak answer, I would say.

God can't be communicated to you.

If it could, it wouldn't be God.

You take the limits of communucation for granted.

[Phil King]

1 minute ago, Vajra said:

God has no ability to distinguish between a God-Realized individual and non-God-Realized individual.

in my opinion this is a stupid statement because to God, there are no distinctions of individuals. 

[Vajra]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

God can't be communicated to you.

If it could, it wouldn't be God.

You take the limits of communucation for granted.

 

"You take the limits of communucation for granted."

I don't. I am saying - find a way to communicate to me (such that I will have no doubt) that you are God-Realized.

You are saying it's not possible.

That is, you are imposing limits on communication here.

Am I right?