Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Danioover9000]

@Razard86

10 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

That last sentence is true but is funny as hell. True conservative human tradition is rape, murder, genocide, and slavery. Human nature truly is a brutal thing.

   How does rape, murder, genocide, and slavery make up the definition of conservativism and traditionalism? Why do you assume those features are part of conservativism?

   Why make a false conflation between the human condition being brutal and conservative/traditional values?

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Why do you assume those features are part of conservativism?

Basic history.

Study your history, kids.

Edited March 30 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Basic history.

Study your history, kids.

   That's mainly imperialism, colonialism, civilization, oligarchy, orthodoxy, theocracy, different types of nationalism. These are far older compared to conservativism, so rape, torture, slavery, are more prevalent in them in terms of volume and intensity, not as much as in conservativism in the modern day. Doesn't mean no conservatives are evil or some are committing criminal acts, but relative to most of human history modern day conservatives are more tamer

   The next problem in @Razard86 assertion:

That last sentence is true but is funny as hell. True conservative human tradition is rape, murder, genocide, and slavery. Human nature truly is a brutal thing.

   Is conflation with brutal human nature to only conservativism, but not to liberalism, or not to other totalitarian and authoritarian groups claiming they're so liberal and communist. That conflation has to be unpacked and made clear why he made such an ad hominem between conservativism only to brutal human nature, but not with groups masquerading as left wing.

 

   

Edited March 30 by Danioover9000

[Bobby_2021]

5 hours ago, Nilsi said:

There is no "normal capitalism." Capitalism functions through unlimited growth and unquenchable desire; it is intrinsically excessive.

There can be healthy markets and an economy, but no healthy capitalism.

What are your standards for being "healthy"? And why is capitalism *inherently* unhealthy?

As long as you don't go wolf of Wall Street style capitalism, it's good enough. The problem is when people think they are too smart to replace it comes up with some crap that's even worse. 

Healthy markets and economy is a function of the government. They set the rules. 

[Yimpa]

Just now, Bobby_2021 said:

Healthy markets and economy is a function of the government. They set the rules. 

This begs the question, then… is the government healthy?

[aurum]

10 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Words do not matter at all. If you can assert that CCP, Putin, Xi, Kim are all right wing fanatics even though they purport textbook left wing nonsense, words do not matter at all.

This is a gross oversimplification the situation.

All those examples you listed use plenty of right wing language. Precisely because they are right wing.

Sometimes words align, and sometimes they don’t. Generally leftists will use leftist language and right wingers will use language that appeals to the right. 

10 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Nah bro they are orange capitalists using liberal brainwashing to maintain their green image. They don't believe in the things they say. 

Google is pretty much like Soviet Union. Speak progressive stuff, and then do monopolistic capitalist stuff when no one is watching. Same with Microsoft and Apple. You cannot deny this because thier hypocrisy so obvious. 

Again, this greatly oversimplifies the situation.

Some of it is liberal greenwashing, and some of it is genuine. Nuance is needed.

 

10 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Well, you can judge them whatever you want. But if you want to create utopia, then you need plenty of slave labour. 

Liberals want to create utopia, but they are opposed to slave labour. They even employe slave labour in secrecy. Which is why I day they are not the liberals they think they are.

Look at actions. Google exploits slave labour. All those hippie silicon valley startups will lose their hippie outlook once they run out of investors money.

Apple literally exploits the living fuck out of third world countries and their lose laws on human rights. But they have a gay ceo so all is fine.

You are beyond naive when you say that capitalism is being phase out lmao. We have more capitalism than ever. 

This is why I say liberalism is a facade that can be maintained only by brainwashing people into being in a bubble. Apple wouldn't exist without slavery. Get that first. 

Do I blame Apple? Not really. They have created a fantastic product on top of exploiting slave labour from China and Bangladesh. Props to them. Congratulations to you as well now you can purport more liberal brainwashing on using products built from slave labour. 

It’s precisely because liberal ideals are harder to live up to that they are more developed.

If they were easier to live up to, then they would indicate they were a match to your level of development.

Utopia is utopia because it represents a society based on more developed values.

My argument is not that we should go ahead and implement every liberal hippie fantasy from a policy perspective.  

And yes, Orange capitalism will be phased out. And it will be replaced by Green, liberal capitalism. This will of course take a very long time, especially for countries that are more underdeveloped. But it’s already happening.

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Razard86 said:

That last sentence is true but is funny as hell. True conservative human tradition is rape, murder, genocide, and slavery. Human nature truly is a brutal thing.

On the other hand, those rapists were liberals exercising their freedom to free sex and abundance. Those who refrain from giving free sex were the ones who were too conservative and regressive in nature. They simply were not open enough to enjoy sex like bold liberals.

You can spin these things any way you want. 

[Bobby_2021]

@aurum Do you think Apple Corporation is conservative or liberal?

All relevant info was included in my post you quoted. 

I chose the Apple case since this is a practical situation that we both are familiar with and you can engage in as much nuance as necessary. 

[sholomar]

Gotta say I love the discussion in this particular  thread... great retorts by both sides. What leftists miss is that capitalism itself fuels the technological innovation that allows their "utopia" to be possible, otherwise evolution and natural selection both prevent such utopias from occuring. Nature doesn't care about the stage green morality (woke leftists) any more than stage blue values (religious right) and both are just another philosophy that groups of people try to force feed on everyone else. 

People strive for more because of the reward at the end of the journey. If you take that reward and redistribute it to people who literally did nothing to participate in the system other than consume, there's no reason or incentive for people to strive for big achievements.  Natural selection and evolution are amoral, and morality is a human construct, in my opinion.

Edited March 30 by sholomar

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

10 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

On the other hand, those rapists were liberals exercising their freedom to free sex and abundance. Those who refrain from giving free sex were the ones who were too conservative and regressive in nature. They simply were not open enough to enjoy sex like bold liberals.

You can spin these things any way you want. 

   True, and making the bold claim that all of traditionalism and conservativism is equal to human brutal nature is a gross false conflation, especially when we look at modern day conservatives to majority of human history with older social customs and practices. The suspicious emphasis on just conservatives as brutal humans, but no mention of Liberals who are more sexually liberated and open to say polyamorous relations or OnlyFans or other kinds of porn, is a good example. 

[Danioover9000]

@sholomar

2 minutes ago, sholomar said:

Gotta say I love the discussion in this particular  thread... great retorts by both sides. What leftists miss is that capitalism itself fuels the technological innovation that allows their "utopia" to be possible, otherwise evolution and natural selection both prevent such utopias from occuring. Nature doesn't care about the stage green morality (woke leftists) any more than stage blue values (religious right) and both are just another philosophy that groups of people try to force feed on everyone else. 

People strive for more because of the reward at the end of the journey. If you take that reward and redistribute it to people who literally did nothing to participate in the system other than consume, there's no reason or incentive for people to strive for big achievements.

   This is why arguably speaking a mixed economy, or a hybrid system of some right wing and some left wing ideas is needed, especially when nature doesn't care if conservativism or liberalism survives. We all are in this giant titanic ship, we all must learn to interact and survive together, somehow coexist moving forwards.

[sholomar]

13 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@sholomar

   This is why arguably speaking a mixed economy, or a hybrid system of some right wing and some left wing ideas is needed, especially when nature doesn't care if conservativism or liberalism survives. We all are in this giant titanic ship, we all must learn to interact and survive together, somehow coexist moving forwards.

I'm all for preventing concentration of power... meaning democracy over autocracy. In those rare instances you get a benevolent leader maybe autocracy may work, but human nature generally prevents that from happening... most autocratic nations turn into variations of 1984. For these utopias to work, every member of society must generally be at that spiral dynamics level of development, otherwise the best solution is gridlock.  Indeed you are correct... we need to find a balance and a way to get along rather than each side taking hardline stances in their echo chambers.

Like it or not, Nazi Germany was an autocratic dictatorship... maybe one that some people believe was a good system (mostly right wingers/conservatives) but in the long run it would have stifled self expression and innovation. My father is such a person... he believes Germany was doing a good thing and doesn't in general like jews, seeing them as the parasites who run the central banks and promote "cultural depravity." Me?  I see human nature being human nature. If you eliminate a group of people and create a vacuum, what fills that vacuum won't necessarily be any better.  If you get rid of today's elites the people who fill that role would eventually end up in the same situation, because of our genetic makeup. The key is really stage yellow or greater leadership who can recognize you have to deal with each stage at their own level and give them time to evolve at their own pace, assuming they don't try to take over the world (think China)

Edited March 30 by sholomar

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

That's mainly imperialism, colonialism, civilization, oligarchy, orthodoxy, theocracy, different types of nationalism. These are far older compared to conservativism

Your conception of conservative is too narrow. You're using some narrow notion of it from political science, whereas being conservative is a deeper structure of the mind independent of political science.

Colonial slavery, for example, was conservative. Even though today's conservatives reject slavery. That's only because today's conservatives are massive liberals.

You guys are just fundamentally not understanding the relativity of these categories. You're not seeing the bigger picture of how all these things are interconnected.

Conservative is not any set of positions. Conservative is the clinging to the past, to stick to traditional ways because your mind is closed to new ways. It makes no difference what those ways are.

A conservative would pierce a bone through his dick just because that's what this daddy and grand-daddy did.

Edited March 30 by Leo Gura

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Hey everyone! This thread just reminded me of this excellent video series on Conservatism, its origins, and its relations to Fascism. 

 

Edited March 30 by Husseinisdoingfine

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Bobby_2021 said:

@aurum Do you think Apple Corporation is conservative or liberal?

All relevant info was included in my post you quoted. 

I chose the Apple case since this is a practical situation that we both are familiar with and you can engage in as much nuance as necessary. 

As I said before, it’s a mixed bag.

Many of the people there are genuinely very liberal. And on the whole, the company has many Green liberal values and operates as such.

Of course there are also some more conservative elements. This is true of all organizations and all people.

Apple is a large corporation deeply entangled with the larger system of our society. So it will be in alignment with the general development of that society. From a Spiral POV, we could consider them Orange / Green.

They may not always be able to fulfill all of their liberal ideals, depending on how utopic your particular brand of leftism is. I’d say they do a reasonable job of be being progressive for a major corporation.

[aurum]

10 hours ago, Nilsi said:

This is the perfect example. Postmodern capitalism is being select for, because it is even more effective. The emphasis on flexibility and adaptability is ruthlessly exploited by capital interests, leading to increased precarity for workers, less job security, fewer benefits without corresponding increases in wages of quality of life. All aspects of life are increasingly commodified and mediated. The economy becomes dominated by signs and symbols (e.g. brands, images) rather than material goods. Identity and self-worth become increasingly tied to consumer choices. Most importantly, the idea that there is no alternative to this capitalist realism becomes internalized and limits the ability to work toward different social or economic ends.

I’m not entirely sure if I’m understanding the point you are making here.

You are arguing that post-modernism capitalism, i.e Green capitalism, is to blame for all those things you listed?

[Danioover9000]

@aurum

4 minutes ago, aurum said:

I’m not entirely sure if I’m understanding the point you are making here.

You are arguing that post-modernism capitalism, i.e Green capitalism, is to blame for all those things you listed?

   If I had to guess, I think he's talking about cryptocurrency maybe, and how post modern perspectival madness it is to think digits, NFTs, and bit coin is the future utopia of a free peoples.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

I’m not entirely sure if I’m understanding the point you are making here.

You are arguing that post-modernism capitalism, i.e Green capitalism, is to blame for all those things you listed?

Yes, my point is that capitalism can take over any spiral stage and becomes even more pernicious the higher up the spiral it moves.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@aurum

   If I had to guess, I think he's talking about cryptocurrency maybe, and how post modern perspectival madness it is to think digits, NFTs, and bit coin is the future utopia of a free peoples.

Postmodernism isn't some futuristic possibility; it has been taking over Western society for over 100 years already.

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

4 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Postmodernism isn't some futuristic possibility; it has been taking over Western society for over 100 years already.

   Postmodernism is the future. It's in the word mate, post. Post, as in one step forward. Just like Ken Wilbur's pre rational, rational, and post-rational stages. Post.