Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Jodistrict]

Hitler was not a conservative.  He was a radical way outside the system.  At the time he lived in Germany, the aristocracy were the conservatives.   Hindenburg was personally opposed to Hitler.   The aristocracy only submitted after Hitler took over Germany. 

[Bobby_2021]

This conversation is heavily skewed into favouring left wing as if everything lower down the spiral is inherently right wing.

You cannot create wealth and freedom with Egalitarianism.

You cannot create a left wing utopia and still have egalitarianism and equality. Utopias are created by capitalism. Slavery was required to build walls which created a small utopia at the time. 

You cannot have freedom(liberalism), equality(Egalitarianism) and wealth(Capitalism). You can pick 2 at best, if that's even possible at all.

You cannot create AI without massive exploitation and crony capitalism. 

If you want massive wealth, you need hierarchies & crony capitalism. We do not have enough Capitalism in the world today. Capitalism and hierarchies has contributed more to the "utopian" vision than egalitarianism ever did and will ever do. Yes, they want to accumulate massive wealth for themselves, but they are also bringing massive wealth into the economy. 

The most egalitarian societies are built under slavery, oppression and sterilization of minorities and weak people and they also managed to whitewash their history. 

[Bobby_2021]

11 hours ago, mmKay said:

@Nilsi

How Hitler's Volkswagen Became A Symbol Of Free Love

Never ask a German company what they did between 1925 and 1945.😅

[aurum]

16 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

This conversation is heavily skewed into favouring left wing as if everything lower down the spiral is inherently right wing.

That's exactly right. The right wing IS lower down the spiral.

Until a person gets that, they will not understand politics.

[Nilsi]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

That's exactly right. The right wing IS lower down the spiral.

Until a person gets that, they will not understand politics.

This is precisely the grave mistake most people make when interpreting Spiral Dynamics.

There is a right-left polarity at every level of the spiral. You can be at the relativistic stage and be oriented towards traditionalism (e.g. Alexander Dugin, Jean Baudrillard), and you can be at the egocentric stage and be oriented towards socialism (e.g. parts of left-wing terrorist organizations like Antifa or RAF).

Ultimately, neither left nor right is "better"; more complex and inclusive worldviews are superior to less complex and inclusive ones. Whether you lean towards maintaining or subverting the status quo has no bearing on that whatsoever.

Also, the right is absolutely essential for a functioning society, for reasons that should be obvious to any mature person, so don’t be so flippant, for fuck‘s sake.

Edited March 29 by Nilsi

[aurum]

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

This is precisely the grave mistake most people make when interpreting Spiral Dynamics.

Consider an alternative perspective: the reason most people interpret it that way is because that's the correct interpretation.

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

There is a right-left polarity at every level of the spiral. You can be at the relativistic stage and be oriented towards traditionalism (e.g. Alexander Dugin, Jean Baudrillard), and you can be at the egocentric stage and be oriented towards socialism (e.g. parts of left-wing terrorist organizations like Antifa or RAF).

The point is that there is an asymmetry between those attracted to the right and left. And the asymmetry is spiral development.

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Ultimately, neither left nor right is "better"; more complex and inclusive worldviews are superior to less complex and inclusive ones. Whether you lean towards maintaining or subverting the status quo has no bearing on that whatsoever.

My claim is not that the left is "better" than the right in some vague absolute sense. I am saying that people who are attracted to the left tend to be higher up the spiral. 

Whether or not someone is truly interested in going beyond the status quo actually says a lot about their development.

1 hour ago, Nilsi said:

Also, the right is absolutely essential for a functioning society,

I never said otherwise. There is such a thing as healthy conservatism, The part of problem right now is we don't have much of that.

 

Edited March 30 by aurum

[Bobby_2021]

The collective development of a society depends upon the circumstances that the they found themselves in. Not necessarily because they were highly developed to begin with.

Likewise, Utopias you dream of, do not happen because of "higher development" of the people. These hippies do nothing to push society forward, and hence they are not really the bleeding edge liberals they think they are. 

Leftist hippies are quite underdeveloped compared to many orange capitalists. It's a complicated topic that needs some uncovering on the systemic skipped & stunted development of the hippies. 

Utopias happen due to the grinding work of the capitalists and the so called right wing conservatives and the slave labour they employ. But you think they are underdeveloped and that's blatantly wrong. 

-----------

Also the discussion is to find out who are the conservatives and who are the Liberals since people can speak of anything they want. That doesn't mean anything to their status of development. You should look at what they are *doing* to assess their development. This thread doesn't even touch that kind of depth of assessment. 

Edited March 30 by Bobby_2021

[aurum]

57 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Likewise, Utopias you dream of, do not happen because of "higher development" of the people. These hippies do nothing to push society forward, and hence they are not really the bleeding edge liberals they think they are. 

Leftist hippies are quite underdeveloped compared to many orange capitalists. It's a complicated topic that needs some uncovering on the systemic skipped & stunted development of the hippies. 

It’s not complicated at all. Of course liberal hippies stuck in utopian fantasies are mostly more developed than right wing, orange capitalists.

You just need to change your criteria for development.

The second major error you are making is equivocating liberals with out of touch hippies. This is a smear job of liberals. If you want to take the worst examples of liberals and use them as a point of comparison, then I get to take the worst examples of the right wing. Fair?

57 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Utopias happen due to the grinding work of the capitalists and the so called right wing conservatives and the slave labour they employ. 

Being superior at driving slave labor does not make you more developed. It makes you less.

Also, consider that many top executives  are actually liberals. Look at silicon valley CEOs. Tons of liberals.

Society is evolving and Green / liberal style of leadership is being selected for. Because that is what is required as our development rises. Orange will be phased out, the Overton window will continue shifting and we will all become more like the liberals of today.

Liberals of today = right wing normies of tomorrow. 

57 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

But you think they are underdeveloped and that's blatantly wrong. 

Underdeveloped on the whole, relative to stage Green liberals. This is, of course, a generalization and will not apply to all people along all lines of development. Development can be messy and non-linear in some respects, this you are correct about. 
 

57 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Also the discussion is to find out who are the conservatives and who are the Liberals since people can speak of anything they want. That doesn't mean anything to their status of development. You should look at what they are *doing* to assess their development.

I’d somewhat agree with this. Looking at what people say is still a good idea, since what you *say* is also something you are *doing* and can reveal aspects of your development. It’s not totally disconnected. Words matter.

[Leo Gura]

As we said before, left and right are defined relatively, so yes you can find versions of left and right all along the Spiral, in the same way that you could take any length of rope, cut it at any point, and you will always have a left and right end.

In the future cyborg humans will be fornicating with hot space aliens and all of us here will be regarded as conservative savages.

Edited March 30 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

Looking at what people say is still a good idea, since what you *say* is also something you are *doing* and can reveal aspects of your development. It’s not totally disconnected. Words matter.

Words do not matter at all. If you can assert that CCP, Putin, Xi, Kim are all right wing fanatics even though they purport textbook left wing nonsense, words do not matter at all.

Was Soviet Russia left wing or right wing? 

2 hours ago, aurum said:

Also, consider that many top executives  are actually liberals. Look at silicon valley CEOs. Tons of liberals.

Nah bro they are orange capitalists using liberal brainwashing to maintain their green image. They don't believe in the things they say. 

Google is pretty much like Soviet Union. Speak progressive stuff, and then do monopolistic capitalist stuff when no one is watching. Same with Microsoft and Apple. You cannot deny this because thier hypocrisy so obvious. 

2 hours ago, aurum said:

Being superior at driving slave labor does not make you more developed. It makes you less.

Well, you can judge them whatever you want. But if you want to create utopia, then you need plenty of slave labour. 

Liberals want to create utopia, but they are opposed to slave labour. They even employe slave labour in secrecy. Which is why I day they are not the liberals they think they are.

Look at actions. Google exploits slave labour. All those hippie silicon valley startups will lose their hippie outlook once they run out of investors money.

Apple literally exploits the living fuck out of third world countries and their lose laws on human rights. But they have a gay ceo so all is fine.

You are beyond naive when you say that capitalism is being phase out lmao. We have more capitalism than ever. 

This is why I say liberalism is a facade that can be maintained only by brainwashing people into being in a bubble. Apple wouldn't exist without slavery. Get that first. 

Do I blame Apple? Not really. They have created a fantastic product on top of exploiting slave labour from China and Bangladesh. Props to them. Congratulations to you as well now you can purport more liberal brainwashing on using products built from slave labour. 

So my question is to you is, is Apple left wing liberal or right wing conservative? 

[Nilsi]

3 hours ago, aurum said:

It’s not complicated at all. Of course liberal hippies stuck in utopian fantasies are mostly more developed than right wing, orange capitalists.

Capitalism is totally foreign to Spiral Dynamics. The force of capital is present at every stage and only becomes more sinister the further up the spiral it moves.

3 hours ago, aurum said:

Also, consider that many top executives  are actually liberals. Look at silicon valley CEOs. Tons of liberals.

Society is evolving and Green / liberal style of leadership is being selected for. Because that is what is required as our development rises. Orange will be phased out, the Overton window will continue shifting and we will all become more like the liberals of today.

This is the perfect example. Postmodern capitalism is being select for, because it is even more effective. The emphasis on flexibility and adaptability is ruthlessly exploited by capital interests, leading to increased precarity for workers, less job security, fewer benefits without corresponding increases in wages of quality of life. All aspects of life are increasingly commodified and mediated. The economy becomes dominated by signs and symbols (e.g. brands, images) rather than material goods. Identity and self-worth become increasingly tied to consumer choices. Most importantly, the idea that there is no alternative to this capitalist realism becomes internalized and limits the ability to work toward different social or economic ends.

It’s not hard to see how this is a distinct break from the rational enlightenment ideal of free market economy and it's promise of universal affluence and happiness and how it precisely coincides with the emergence and rise of the relativistic mind in western society.

Attributing capitalism to low development is the gravest of mistakes, and trivializes the pervasive force of capitalism to a dangerous degree. 

[Leo Gura]

@Nilsi The issue isn't capitalism, but excessive mindless capitalism.

People get so stuck in capitalism they never discover the higher aspects of life.

Edited March 30 by Leo Gura

[Nilsi]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Nilsi The issue isn't capitalism, but excessive mindless capitalism.

People get so stuck in capitalism they never discover the higher aspects of life.

Yes, capitalism is the issue, as it is what makes it increasingly difficult to discover higher aspects of life and, unless stopped, will start turning increasingly more sacred aspects of life into commodities and fuel for its fire.

[mmKay]

There is no stopping capitalism. Only evolving through it and transcending it into something beyond mindless capitalism 

[Nilsi]

Just now, Nilsi said:

Yes, capitalism is the issue, as it is what makes it increasingly difficult to discover higher aspects of life and, unless stopped, will start turning increasingly more sacred aspects of life into commodities and fuel for its fire.

A highly intelligent individual can perhaps outsmart capitalism and transcend some of its influence, but this will always be a race, and the vast majority will get caught and devoured by it. Therefore, to be truly emancipatory means to be absolutely opposed to capitalism.

[Bobby_2021]

The right wing is easy to identify and criticize. Nobody denied Hitler was right wing. And although hitler was not a conservative, strictly speaking, he did appeal to a conservative mind. But a conservative mind would never do the things a hitler do. These things are not even denied. Obvious.

The problem is that people make it hard to identify left wing. Communists always play this game.

>First they implement some bullshit leftist utopian vision. 

>Kill hundred million people.

>Oppsie we were right wing all along.

You can maintain this fluidity and bitch about implementing any far left policy and claim that people who failed it were simply right wing. This is giving us reasons to be more genuinely conservative. 

This is why people don't really understand or value the terms like socialism or even communism. It  doesn't really mean anything. Because once they fail, it was not socialism afterall. Because by definition socialism is heaven. As long as heaven is not reached, it's not socialism. 

Liberals should limit their talking points to individual rights and what pertains to individual freedoms. Like LGBTQ, Privacy, Free Speech, abortion rights, Right to free health care etc. Even letting them talk about healthcare is already a huge stretch, but we can allow it.

Liberals should not be talking about how to run a society or nation as a whole. They will run it down to ruins if they are allowed to talk about such stuff. They go no idea how the world functions as a whole. 

Also conservatives should stop talking about individual freedoms, because they do not value it. 

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The issue isn't capitalism, but excessive mindless capitalism

Liberals want to undo capitalism. They don't distinguish excessive capitalism and normal capitalism. 

Capitalism == Exploitation, in their minds. 

Also the terms liberals are simply referring to left wing liberals in America and not what I strictly mean by liberalism. As it turns out, the right wing is the one who champions most liberal values at the moment, except for abortion rights. 

[Nilsi]

17 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Liberals want to undo capitalism. They don't distinguish excessive capitalism and normal capitalism. 

There is no "normal capitalism." Capitalism functions through unlimited growth and unquenchable desire; it is intrinsically excessive.

There can be healthy markets and an economy, but no healthy capitalism.

Edited March 30 by Nilsi

[Danioover9000]

@Nilsi

2 hours ago, Nilsi said:

There is no "normal capitalism." Capitalism functions through unlimited growth and unquenchable desire; it is intrinsically excessive.

There can be healthy markets and an economy, but no healthy capitalism.

   What is intrinsically excessive about capitalism? Unlimited growth and unquenchable desire?

   Why would you claim there could be healthy markets and economy, but no healthy capitalism?

[Razard86]

On 3/26/2024 at 8:32 AM, Leo Gura said:

Hitler was not such a deep thinker that we must strain to understand him.

The notion that American scholars do not understand Hitler is silly.

I already explained that.

An ultra-conservative has to be revolutionary simply because relative to such a view all of society looks way too liberal.

If I wanted to return to traditional American values of slavery and genocide of savages, I would have to wage a radical revolution that would make Ben Shapiro and Alex Jones look like weepy social justice warrior libs and care bears.

A hardcore conservative would rape, execute, and enslave everyone outside his tribe. Don't kid yourself.

That last sentence is true but is funny as hell. True conservative human tradition is rape, murder, genocide, and slavery. Human nature truly is a brutal thing.