Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Yousif]

1 hour ago, Majed said:

@Leo Gura honestly if i was a father i would let my daughter do whatever she wants with her body, not to opress her and as long as it is legal. now tits hanging out i don't know if it is legal lol but if it was normal and legal i would let her lol

You clearly don’t understand the position of a father in a middle eastern country, it’s not that they don’t love their wives or daughters enough to let them wear whatever they want, it’s that if you live in these countries and you don’t wear it or don’t control your daughter, she will be sexually harassed, raped, and even killed, along with death threats to the family, and a lot of people migrated to a different country because of this.

[Nemra]

I love the liberal bubble that I have created in a generally anti-liberal country. I couldn't have found you otherwise. 

[Yousif]

58 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Leo Gura i mean i guess if someone want to rape my daughter he would do it regardless of what she's wearing, like when i do pick up sometimes i hit on women who wear scarfs lol they can be attractive. did you ever hit on a girl who was wearing a scarf ? like the islamic scarf

In the middle east, they’ll leave you alone if you’re covered up and don’t provoke their sexual urges.

[Nemra]

In Egypt, trains have sections for only men and women. There are schools that are only for girls or boys. I don't remember if all of them were like that.

[Yousif]

1 hour ago, Majed said:

@Leo Gura yeah but this is just some oppressive non sense

You’re from Lebanon, and you guys are fairly accepting of the idea of girls hanging their tits out because you have a lot of Christians in your country unlike other places in the middle east 

[Yousif]

24 minutes ago, Ayham said:

@Yousif huh, another iraqi? The fuck?

Yessir.

[Yousif]

27 minutes ago, Majed said:

@Yousif sounds perfect if you're gay hahhahhaha

 

A lot of people in these regions develop and become gay because of this. 

[Yimpa]

Great discussion team! This is a good opportunity / reminder to checkout this related thread and to open your mind and hearts to different perspectives:

 

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

40 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Great discussion team! This is a good opportunity / reminder to checkout this related thread and to open your mind and hearts to different perspectives:

 

   Noice. It's always interesting to learn geography and other fields around the world, does open up a person's mind.

[OBEler]

3 hours ago, Davino said:

@OBEler Btw, wanted to say this is a great thread. I would have loved to participate if it weren't for my ignorance on the topic. I actually learnt a lot and many doubts I had are now resolved.

Thanks man! I needed to start this thread, didn't know it evolved into such a big topic about human history, human biology and ai.

 

[Nilsi]

On 26.3.2024 at 0:05 PM, OBEler said:

Hitler was not conservative. You probably consumed propaganda. Just hear original Hitler speeches like this one

 

Hitler said you should have respect of the past but you should not identify with it (big difference !!). You should respect their achievements but that should not mean that what they did is still good.

Hitler said, It is good to build up from ancestors achievements but then put your own will into it. So just copy what the ancestors did is utterly stupid.

A conservative would never said that.

Hitler: Nationalsocialism is based on biological insights and not on ancient tradition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great speech: very lucid, timely, and passionate - it's not hard to see why Hitler was able to claim such ridiculous amounts of power, without any initial capitalist maneuvering.

The bigotry and backwardness of his views are quite obvious, though, from as detached a standpoint as listening to some YouTube audio 100+ years later.

His analysis of the current state of the world in his time was quite astute up to the point where he portrays Germany as the victim of some grand conspiracy and thus justifies a total "emancipatory" war. The reality is that Germany's demise was the result of a complex, decentralized historical process and not the plot of some anti-German Jewish deep state.

Edited March 28 by Nilsi

[Emerald]

On 3/26/2024 at 7:05 AM, OBEler said:

Hitler was not conservative. You probably consumed propaganda. Just hear original Hitler speeches like this one

 

Hitler said you should have respect of the past but you should not identify with it (big difference !!). You should respect their achievements but that should not mean that what they did is still good.

Hitler said, It is good to build up from ancestors achievements but then put your own will into it. So just copy what the ancestors did is utterly stupid.

A conservative would never said that.

Hitler: Nationalsocialism is based on biological insights and not on ancient tradition.

There are two strains of conservatism that apply here... one is a more preservative kind of conservatism around preserving the status quo... the other is a more reactionary kind of conservatism where it seeks to rehabilitate a mythologized past.

So, a person can be a conservative who wants to maintain the current power structures that be (in the case of those that benefit from the current structures). Like a person might want to preserve Capitalism if they have current success under the Capitalist system.

But a more reactionary conservative wants to resurrect a traditional ideal (one that never truly existed but that they believe existed). 

This is where the archetypal "Golden Age" myth comes into play.

And you can tell who is progressive and who's conservative based on that.

Someone who is on the far left would project the Golden Age into  the future and imagine a future utopia that has not yet existed. You can see this in far left ideologies that are all about the idea of the ideal social where workers own the means of production and the problems of that past are gotten rid of.

Someone who is in the center-right might view the current era as the Golden Era and have the thought that we already reached the Golden Era... and that not we need to preserve that by fighting against progress.

And someone who's in the far-right will project the Golden Era into the mythologized and idealized past... which deals with in-group purity (ethnic, national, and racial), traditional gender roles, ect. 

And it appeals to fears of outsiders (like immigrants and those of different ethnic, national, racial, and religious groups that differ from that of the in-group. And it maintains itself on the masculine sexual insecurity of outsiders coming in to "rape" of the dominant groups women. And I use scare quotes on rape because the fear is actually a fear of consensual miscegenation.

And this is in alignment with Hitler's vision of the Aryan mythology. 

And it really doesn't take too much awareness to recognize that HiItler is right wing. It's really obvious.

The far right wing is all about rehabilitating a mythologized past where the dominant racial group was great (before "the outsiders" came along and ruined it)... and is thus anti-outsider and commits atrocities like genocides against particular minority ethnic, national, racial, or religious groups to cleanse the land for the "chosen people" and to bring back the good old days where women were women and men were men and everything was in its proper place in the hierarchy with the dictatorial father on top of the society and every household with the father on top.

The far left wing tends to be futuristic and utopian and seeks to undermine the status quo to go in a brand new direction that wasn't done in the past. And it commits mass murder of those who don't subscribe to the revolutionary agenda or who are seen as enemies of the movement.

This is how you can tell the difference between a right wing autocrat and a left-wing autocrat.

 

 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And it really doesn't take too much awareness to recognize that HiItler is right wing. It's really obvious.

The dispute was not about whether he was right-wing but whether he was conservative.

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

The dispute was not about whether he was right-wing but whether he was conservative.

Well, that's a spectral thing and largely depends on the semantics used to define these terms.

If we look at things from a Left vs Right semantic perspective... we could call Hilter right wing

If we look at things from a Liberal vs Conservative semantic perspective... we could call Hilter conservative.

But my argument along these lines is that Conservatism and Fascism are spectral with one another because Conservatism tends to have mildly to moderately fascistic elements (though the radicalization of the recent decade makes the average Conservative far more comfortable and familiar with Fascist talking points)... like there will be a general dislike a immigrants coming in, a desire to maintain in-group purity and traditions, and more traditional gender norms.

And with Fascism, it's about actively cleansing society of outsiders and restructuring it to fit more traditional norms. 

So... the Conservative and the Fascist tends to have the same groups on their shit-lists.... minority ethnic, racial, national, and religious groups, the LGBT community, anything that deviates from traditional gender norms that upsets patriarchal order.

The difference is by matter of degree and action. 

And to categorize the Conservative and the Fascist as fundamentally different and not existing on a spectrum with one another, just feels like another way to muddy the waters so that people don't notice the Conservative Overton Window shifting further to the right. 

Actual White Nationalists often do this to try to distance their movement from the likes of Hilter and the Nazis because the average normie doesn't like Hitler and the Nazis. 

So, redefining Far Right as "not Conservative" feel like what White Nationalist try to do to make themselves more palatable... or some normie picked up that talking point and is spreading it without realizing they're being tricked into muddying the waters.

 

[Nilsi]

17 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

Great speech: very lucid, timely, and passionate - it's not hard to see why Hitler was able to claim such ridiculous amounts of power, without any initial capitalist maneuvering.

The bigotry and backwardness of his views are quite obvious, though, from as detached a standpoint as listening to some YouTube audio 100+ years later.

His analysis of the current state of the world in his time was quite astute up to the point where he portrays Germany as the victim of some grand conspiracy and thus justifies a total "emancipatory" war. The reality is that Germany's demise was the result of a complex, decentralized historical process and not the plot of some anti-German Jewish deep state.

To add some spice to the discussion: I would place Hitler within the SD Green stage.

The way he deconstructs all the prevalent grand narratives of his time and blurs the lines between description and normativity in the aforementioned speech is classic postmodernist rhetoric and foreshadows the more rigorous academic formulations of this intellectual sensibility.

This, of course, depends on how one interprets the subject of Spiral Dynamics, which I claim is concerned with the form/structure of one's worldview rather than the content (a point also quite explicitly stated by the authors of that work).

[Leo Gura]

 

16 minutes ago, Nilsi said:

To add some spice to the discussion: I would place Hitler within the SD Green stage.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

   This is a literal, figurative and metaphorical treasure trove mine of paranormal events involving creatures, ghosts and UFOs and even groups of psychics, around the time of the fall of the USSR:

   It's just amazing and mind boggling to think something like this occurred, just another version of the skin walker ranch in Utah. Very high strangeness.

[mmKay]

@Nilsi

How Hitler's Volkswagen Became A Symbol Of Free Love

Edited March 28 by mmKay

[Leo Gura]

53 minutes ago, Emerald said:

This is where the archetypal "Golden Age" myth comes into play.

And you can tell who is progressive and who's conservative based on that.

Someone who is on the far left would project the Golden Age into  the future and imagine a future utopia that has not yet existed. You can see this in far left ideologies that are all about the idea of the ideal social where workers own the means of production and the problems of that past are gotten rid of.

This is a great point.

[Nilsi]

11 minutes ago, mmKay said:

@Nilsi

 

This is precisely what I said I didn’t mean (i.e. content).