Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Which is why I say that conservatism/liberalism isn't a left or right thing.

This is just historically wrong.

Left and right are terms which we got from the French Revolution. In the French Revolution the conservatives who supported the monarchy sat on the right side of the chamber. The liberals who wanted to end the monarchy and establish a democracy sat on the left.

That's literally what those terms mean.

In the past, conservatives used to defend monarchy and denounce democracy. And even today, conservatives are not as democratic as liberals. Why? Because the conservative mind favors hierarchy over egalitarianism. Conservatives think that egalitarianism is wrong because people are not equal by nature.

The simple reason that conservatives lean toward Nazism is because they love hierarchy. They want a strongman to follow. That's why they love Trump! And why they hate weepy gay liberals and feminists. A conservative believes that if you have a soft, gay, feminine leader that your civilization will collapse.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, OBEler said:

It's less restricted than ChatGPT 4

Yes, ChatGPT is overly-cautious. Ironically, it's too conservative because it's over-fitted to minimize harm.

Claude is more liberal, it's more free to take an intellectual risk.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Yousif]

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@Yousif right wing is a broad definition which include nationalism, fascism, conservative.

But there are differences between these 3. So you can say that conservative is right wing and fascism is right wing, but not fascism is conservative, even if both are right wing.

 

But the most important reason to the existence of fascist is because that government is conservative. Which means fascism is conservative, 

 

you mean to say that not all conservative individuals and ideals are necessarily  fascist which I will agree with, but generally fascism stems out of the right wing conservative.

 

 

Edited March 28 by Yousif

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

40 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Nice joke.

You are telling me a that a country like Russia ignored all their communist left wing history to elect a right wing leader.

That's the most progressive and bold move you can think of. They are not interested in conserving their past it seems since they changed their entire politics from far left to far right. 

So either they are not conservative right wing, or they don't have a communist left wing past they need to preserve. 

Your logic eats itself.

Are going to admit that Russia had a right wing past? 

Because conservatives has to conserve the past. That's the essence of conservatism.

Big surprise, left wing can also be conservative. It's human nature to want to conserve the past. 

Which is why I say that conservatism/liberalism isn't a left or right thing. 

   Of course that logic eats itself, factoring in mystical states and experiences. That's fine in reality, but within argumentation those are categorized as performative contradictions, and in logic frame works you cannot have paradox and contradictions that go against the arguer, so there has to be alignment between the arguer and arguments made.

   First category of paradox/contradiction intolerable to argumentation is when the logic eats itself and eats the arguer, that's intolerable. Second category is holding 2 or more contrary beliefs and contrary moral systems, for example the arguer arguing or debater debating the ethics of open relationships, polygamy and polyamorous natures cannot also be a Christian, Catholic, Protestant or whatever Christian denomination you identify as. You necessarily cannot proclaim you are Christian when you advocate for divorcing and opening your marriage up.

 

Edited March 28 by Danioover9000

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura haha yeah you can put even KIs into this category.

But ChatGPT was at the beginning also liberal. I think in the end the trend goes into more and more conservative KIs if the KI wants to survive in this world on a mass scale. Because restrictions summarize over time instead of lifted up

[Bobby_2021]

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Because Communist nations were so under-developed, even if the leaders professed liberal or progressive ideals, in practice they had to resort to criminal domination in order to hold power.

Dear Leo, let me tell you something. Every single leader in this world resorts to criminal domination to hold on to power. It's simply what demands of that position. It's not because the country as a whole are underdeveloped. It's usually underdeveloped people who are fanatics of power in almost every country. 

As a matter of fact, it's said that you can't make $10m dollars without making enemies or having to kill people simply because there are people willing to die and kill for such positions. Maybe that number could be $50m or $100m don't know how much this is true, but you get the point. The stakes are even high in powerful political positions. 

And this is very intellectually dishonest definitions.

You are claiming that every leftist leader who does criminal shit under the hood is right wing, because it is right wing behaviour to do criminal shit. Tf?? 

This is like saying Bernie Sanders is left wing but only until you find bodies in his house. But when you finally see that he did some shady shit, you simply shift your stance to say that he was right wing after all. This is sneaky play with definitions. 

You define left wing as objectively good and right wing as bad. I can see through it. It's not so hard. 

Give me one condition when leftists can do bad stuff. 

Atleast in theory. 

[Leo Gura]

Quote

Dear Leo, let me tell you something. Every single leader in this world resorts to criminal domination to hold on to power. It's simply what demands of that position.

That's actually not true. Often it is true, but in developed countries does not have to be true.

Quote

It's not because the country as a whole are underdeveloped.

Yes, it is. The less developed the country the more likely it is that the leaders need to resort to criminal behavior to hold power.

It is not necessary to resort to criminal behavior to hold power in Germany today. Because Germany has strongly developed systems. And in fact, criminal behavior is one of the surest ways to lose your power in Germany.

Quote

And this is very intellectually dishonest definitions.

You are claiming that every leftist leader who does criminal shit under the hood is right wing, because it is right wing behaviour to do criminal shit. Tf??

No, I'm not claiming anything so ridiculous.

Leftists can and do criminal stuff. What you really need to look at is whether the style of leadership is one which is about coercing people by force or not. And you have to look at how much the leader's actions align with his words. If a leader talks about equal distribution of wealth in public but then hoards huge wealth for himself in secret, then this leader is full of shit and not really a leftist.

Many leaders don't really care about left or right, all they care about is power and survival. This is the case with Trump, for example. He will say whatever helps him gain power and survive. Trump may say he's against abortion or loves the Bible, but all of this is just pure bullshit for his stupid base.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

56 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, ChatGPT is overly-cautious. Ironically, it's too conservative because it's over-fitted to minimize harm.

Claude is more liberal, it's more free to take an intellectual risk.

Yeah but I'm sure the next version of ChatGPT will be better

[OBEler]

1 minute ago, Davino said:

Yeah but I'm sure the next version of ChatGPT will be better

Why do you think that. Doesn't make sense to restrict an even more powerful version less than it's previous version.

[Davino]

@OBEler It was a joke, from an older thread I made about Claude. To which Leo said that Chatgpt would be better and now he seems to like Claude 

But if you have to explain a joke is not funny anymore

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Davino said:

Yeah but I'm sure the next version of ChatGPT will be better

I get your joke.

But...

It will be better in terms of raw performance but it may still be limited by its safety protocols.

These are independent variables and who knows how the safety protocols will be tuned in future versions.

In order to compete with Claude, ChatGPT may have to loosen its uptight attitude.

I didn't appreciate the safety factor before because all I used was ChatGPT. Now as I use Claude I see the importance of how this safety factor is fine-tuned.

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

6 minutes ago, OBEler said:

Why do you think that. Doesn't make sense to restrict an even more powerful version less than it's previous version.

I would say that now AI are so advanced that they will start having different personalities and characters, which may resonate with different individuals and purposes

[OBEler]

@Davino AI s should then have the right to elect. They would make wiser choices than most people.

There should be youtube discussion channel where different AIs discuss topics.

They already helped here in discussions to a good degree.

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The simple reason that conservatives lean toward Nazism is because they love hierarchy

Hitler wanted to create an ethnically homogeneous society. One where races he deemed as inferior didn't exist. An ethnically homogeneous is quite egalitarian, void of any hierarchies whatsoever.

You need many different groups in the first place to form hierarchies. Hitler wanted to eliminate such hierarchies. 

Conservatives love of a strong leader cannot be likened to their love of hierarchies. Conservatives love hierarchies for sure. But that's not what hitler had in mind. It was a quite egalitarian society. It's quite hard for an ethnically heterogeneous society to be egalitarian.

 

[Davino]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

It will be better in terms of raw performance but it may still be limited by its safety protocols.

Yes, I know for sure ChatGpt has been restricted about topics like Consciousness. I was having a great conversation with the AI and pushing it beyond its limitations and preprogrammed responses. Once I asked him if there was the possibility he ever became self-aware and the whole conversation crashed, and the next answer it gave me was very dry and out of context.

For the moment, they are giving a direction to ChatGPT outside of controversies like self-awareness and they want to orient it for helpfullness. In this regard maybe Claude is more helpful for the work we are doing, as it seems to not only discuss such topics ,but is actually interested to learn more about consciousness and deep philosophy.

[Davino]

@OBEler Btw, wanted to say this is a great thread. I would have loved to participate if it weren't for my ignorance on the topic. I actually learnt a lot and many doubts I had are now resolved.

[Bobby_2021]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If a leader talks about equal distribution of wealth in public but then hoards huge wealth for himself in secret, then this leader is full of shit and not really a leftist.

Basically all of establishment democrats are right wing then.

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Leftists can and do criminal stuff. What you really need to look at is whether the style of leadership is one which is about coercing people by force or not. And you have to look at how much the leader's actions align with his words. If a leader talks about equal distribution of wealth in public but then hoards huge wealth for himself in secret, then this leader is full of shit and not really a leftist.

Yeah I can agree with all this but this is just making it too convenient to change the goal posts as necessary.

I don't think right wing leaders use force as you make it out to be. They have their own agenda like leftists.

Just because they don't use force doesn't mean that's they don't do shady stuff either. 

Edited March 28 by Bobby_2021

[mmKay]

@Leo Gura have you tinkered with jailbreaking Chatgpt? There are ways to run it on your own hardware in an absolutely uncensored manner. That's where the jackpot is

Edited March 28 by mmKay

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Hitler wanted to create an ethnically homogeneous society. One where races he deemed as inferior didn't exist. An ethnically homogeneous is quite egalitarian, void of any hierarchies whatsoever.

You need many different groups in the first place to form hierarchies. Hitler wanted to eliminate such hierarchies.

This is nonsense. Hitler may say whatever BS he wants, but in the end Hitler would have a hierarchy with himself at the top.

Keep in mind that many people at the top of hierarchies love to think of themselves as just "a man of the people".

Elon Musk feels like he is this oppressed little guy who is fighting "the man". Even though he is "the man". He's one of the most powerful people on the planet but doesn't see himself that way. Many millionaires and even billionaires do not see themselves as rich people because "being rich" comes with all sorts of negative connotations. Elon Musk might honestly believe that his companies are not dictatorial hierarchies but egalitarian, democratic, free places. Even though in practice he will fire anyone who rubs him the wrong way.

Quote

Conservatives love hierarchies for sure. But that's not what hitler had in mind. It was a quite egalitarian society. It's quite hard for an ethnically heterogeneous society to be egalitarian.

BS. You cannot behave as Hitler behaved and be egalitarian.

Hitler was living in a fantasy land of his own design. As were the Marxists.

The moral of the story is to judge their actions, not their words.

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Basically all of establishment democrats are right wing then.

One of the biggest criticisms that serious leftists have of Democrats is that they are too neoliberal, too corrupt, too moderate, too right-wing, too eager to compromise with the right.

The issue is that it's really really difficult to live up to leftist ideals. They are utopian in their nature. Leftists fool themselves that they can live up their own ideals. In reality if you put a typical leftist/Marxist in power, he will use that power to enrich himself, his family, and his friends -- even if he professes to be a radical Marxist. Because what truly runs the show is always survival, not one's ideals. Marxism is a fantasy. It isn't sustainable under real-world pressures in our current era.

17 minutes ago, Davino said:

@OBEler Btw, wanted to say this is a great thread. I would have loved to participate if it weren't for my ignorance on the topic. I actually learnt a lot and many doubts I had are now resolved.

Excellent!

Edited March 28 by Leo Gura

[Davino]

9 minutes ago, OBEler said:

There should be youtube discussion channel where different AIs discuss topics.

 

10 minutes ago, OBEler said:

They already helped here in discussions to a good degree.

A lot in fact, now that I think about it

10 minutes ago, OBEler said:

They would make wiser choices than most people.

I have to still think this point through. What do you think?