Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[mmKay]

16 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Schizophonia sorry there is a bug on mobile version I cannot delete references once I tip on someone.

 

@mmKay  please read more carefully what I wrote. I wrote that there was nothing to fear if you don't participate in the Nazi party. So if you are not a member of the party and just live your life, fine. But If you do something official against the Nazi regime of course you would be in danger. 

 

no, the Gestapo's surveillance meant that even if you didn't actively oppose the regime could still be perceived as threats, so being " apolitical " was dangerous. It's one of the most impacting aspects of Nazi movies imo. Not participating = oposing

Edited March 26 by mmKay

[OBEler]

@mmKay 

56 minutes ago, mmKay said:

no, the Gestapo's surveillance meant that even if you didn't actively oppose the regime could still be perceived as threats, so being " apolitical " was dangerous. It's one of the most impacting aspects of Nazi movies imo. Not participating = oposing

Ok that is a valid point. I thought if you are German and just live your life, contributing to Germany, you are ok. But if you don't participate at all in any activity there could be some serious issues with gestapo. It's not like North Korea but at the end of the war it got more and more dangerous.

Regarding to this topic I remember a personal story: My great grandfather lead a prisoner of war camp and got kicked out of his position because Nazis thought he would threat these prisoners too nice. He was traumatized and never recovered from this violation of his honor. He once begged my grandfather to send him a gun to shoot himself after he knew Germany will lose the war. He finally died at the end of war in a psychward, it was official suicide (but who knows). So it can go in the wrong direction if you really don't participate. You will not be shot immediately but circumstances like destroyig your career can lead to depression and suicide.

It was known that Hitler sent unliked generals personally  a handgun as a signal that they had the last chance to shoot themselves so they can at least die in honor. Otherwise the gestapo will finish the job. But these generals really did something wrong. There was always a serious issue. Just having a different opinion than Hitler on military issues was not dangerous.

Edited March 26 by OBEler

[Danioover9000]

@mmKay

1 hour ago, mmKay said:

That is just factually incorrect... Where did you pull this information from? If you opposed the Nazi ideology you would get persecuted, discriminated , incarcerated, forced to emigrate or even sent to concentration camps. What makes you think Hitler's regime would go easy on you for clearly not being by his side?

   He pulled that information from @Leo Gura's hypothetical example of a Nazi putting a gun to your head.

[Danioover9000]

@Schizophonia

1 hour ago, Schizophonia said:

 

Why notify me?
You must have made a mistake.

   Guilty by association.😔

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

1 hour ago, OBEler said:

@Schizophonia @Danioover9000please do the math. There were 500.000 Jews living in Germany when Hitler came to power. That's under 1% of german population. The factory workers are of course Jews from occupied countrys by the Nazis and not germans /living in Germany. I claimed that  most German population were save unter Hitler even if they don't take part in Nazi party. No one was putting a gun to someone's head if they didn't become  a full Nazi member. That's bullshit. Of course there was group pressure and probably other social constrictions but not as hard as people think.

And I still don't understand what are the security issues for women ? They were highly respected, maybe for the first time. until today we celebrate the so called "mother day ", which Hitler invented.

House wives were respected and working in the household is a save environment so what exactly are you talking about?

   Housewives were respected and working in the household, okay, and probably nurses, teachers, waitresses, bartenders, et cetera. But what about jobs were majority were male and women wanted to do those jobs related to S.T.E.M, military, construction, et cetera? What about single women at that time?

   Hitler invented mother's day???

   Okay, can you give me sources about the German population during Hitler's reign? If you say 500,000 Jews make up under 1% of Germany's population under Nazi Germany, then there's roughly a total of 50,000,000 Germans within Germany, and 500,000 are Jews? So what are the remaining 49,500,000, 99%, distributed to which demographics?

   Also while we're on the topic of population, we also have had the birthrate decline issue even here as well. Of course largely due to WW1 among other factors, the Nazis have this state sponsored breeding program here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBmqaJkJOFAxUtV0EAHYmLDgcQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fencyclopedia.ushmm.org%2Fcontent%2Fen%2Farticle%2Flebensborn-program&usg=AOvVaw0rG_lJJOBcXYWQF-XxkOLk&opi=89978449

[OBEler]

12 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@OBEler

   Housewives were respected and working in the household, okay, and probably nurses, teachers, waitresses, bartenders, et cetera. But what about jobs were majority were male and women wanted to do those jobs related to S.T.E.M, military, construction, et cetera? What about single women at that time?

   Hitler invented mother's day???

   Okay, can you give me sources about the German population during Hitler's reign? If you say 500,000 Jews make up under 1% of Germany's population under Nazi Germany, then there's roughly a total of 50,000,000 Germans within Germany, and 500,000 are Jews? So what are the remaining 49,500,000, 99%, distributed to which demographics?

   Also while we're on the topic of population, we also have had the birthrate decline issue even here as well. Of course largely due to WW1 among other factors, the Nazis have this state sponsored breeding program here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjBmqaJkJOFAxUtV0EAHYmLDgcQFnoECBMQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fencyclopedia.ushmm.org%2Fcontent%2Fen%2Farticle%2Flebensborn-program&usg=AOvVaw0rG_lJJOBcXYWQF-XxkOLk&opi=89978449

Ok the mother day existed before in america but Hitler made it in Germany as an official celebration day for the first time in Germany. 

From ChatGPT: 

Germany's population at the time was around 65 million. Minority groups included Jews, who numbered about 500,000 (less than 1% of the population), along with smaller communities of Sinti and Roma, Poles, and other ethnicities.

Other minorities (Poles, Sinti and Roma, Afro-Germans, and other smaller ethnic groups): Given that the Jewish community was the most significant minority group numerically, the other groups collectively would constitute a small percentage of the population, likely in the range of 4% to 6%, considering the ethnic German majority accounted for 93% to 95% of the population.

 

"But what about jobs were majority were male and women wanted to do those jobs related to S.T.E.M, military, construction, et cetera? What about single women at that time?"

war led to women taking on a broader range of jobs, including those traditionally held by men. There was even a woman general. But outside of war they could just do jobs for women.

Edited March 27 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@mmKay

   He pulled that information from @Leo Gura's hypothetical example of a Nazi putting a gun to your head.

Sigh...

Figuratively, not literally.

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura yeah of course figuratively!

But from what I know about civil normal Germans who were not real Nazis, pressure was not a big issue. Probably was the pressure as big as in China right now or less for accepting the government. So nothing really threatening you can live a normal life just follow some rules if you are not accepting the ideology of Nazis/Nazi regime. Only 5 million party members out of 70 million existed 1939. f you are not a party member you can still have a normal life. So the figuratively pressure Leo describes is not as strong as some Hollywood movies suggest. This does not include the last months of Germany. There went everything crazy. 

If you don't want to do some dirty tasks for the Nazis you are free to cancel, no one will punish you, you just loose some respect maybe. They had enough people in the genocide who participated willingly. Many thought probably If you are not doing it, some other comrate needs to do it for you. 

Edited March 27 by OBEler

[mmKay]

@OBEler there is overwhelming hystorical evidence of how the corrupt nazi regime influenced all aspects of personal life. And even without that evidence you can simply understand how if corrupt people are in power , rules and morality fly out the window

"Lead a normal life and feel free to cancel if you don't want to do some dirty tasks"? Do you understand  what politely declining a task from that corrupt regime means for your family , business and possessions?

Why do you have so much faith in the good will of the members of a corrupt system not to abuse their power?

Not actively participating, non compliance or God forbid, opposition , in an authoritarian corrupt regime means blackmail, torture , imprisoned or worse, of you and your loved ones.

 

A corrupt regime uses propaganda, coercion and absolutely whatever dirty means to maintain "their order" and power

What are you defending here? That Nazism was bad but not that bad? I don't understand 

If you have an interest perspective I'm open to hear it but this is getting more cringe by the hour, nothing personal. I'm sure you're have good takes on different topics 

Edited March 27 by mmKay

[OBEler]

@mmKay where did I say Nazis were not corrupt? Of course they were.

"Lead a normal life and feel free to cancel if you don't want to do some dirty tasks"? Do you understand  what politely declining a task from that corrupt regime means for your family , business and possessions?"

I probably do more understand than you do if you think you will be immediately deported. I even have personal evidence, a family member, he was in the SS, refused to work at a concentration camp because it was traumatic for him to do this dirty job. So what happened? Nothing really. No punishment at all. he took another job which had nothing to do with killing people. He lived a good life until he died in the age of 80.

 

Interesting that I need to position myself if I see Nazis as good or bad. Such a black and white view I don't have. I am only interested in what was true. And as reality is complex , so is the behavior of Nazis. At the end they were human beings, or at least partly humans. So there is a lot of ambiguity in my posts here because if you want to hear the truth and not the repeated propaganda story things get complex and sometimes paradox.

But if you really want a position from me, fine : I am against the image of Nazi Germany created by Hollywood war movies (inglorious bastards etc) and call of duty games. It's a distorted view of how it really was and many of you are brainwashed by this as I can also see in this thread. Most Nazis were not sadistic, narcistic psychos but total normal people like me and you who had probably their best times in their lifes in Nazi Germany until they lost the war. 

People today think that Germans were either total stupid or forced to participate in Hitler regime. But the truth is most Germans were willfully participating in it and glorified the Hitler regime. Hitler raised to country out of misery. And not only conservatives were Nazis, from all kind of classes. It was a unified country and there was not so much pressure needed to create this like people here think (no North Korea style). 

Edited March 27 by OBEler

[mmKay]

8 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@mmKay I have even have personal evidence, a family member, he was in the SS, refused to work at a concentration camp because it was traumatic for him to do this dirty job. So what happened? Nothing really. he took another job which had nothing to do with killing people. He lived a good life until he died in the age of 80.

That's the exception, not the rule, and the consequences of not publicly praising the regime and eagerly participating can be that immediate but also more of an insidious negative ripple effect on your life and your loved ones.

Yes, the majority of people just wants a quiet peaceful life and will participate the bare minimum not to be seen in a bad light. 

Yes, you can say people willingly participated in the regime , if the negative effects are potentially so bad , and you are rewarded so good for fitting in. Sideing with power has an obvious appeal .

As a side note, to this day I hear old people here in Spain saying " my life was better with Franco". It's a pretty common saying here , and they give real life tangible examples of how their life was better. And it's true. If you side with power you get rewarded.

It's not apples to apples though.

[OBEler]

@mmKay You see that's all I say. And yeah it's not all apples to apples though.

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

59 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@mmKay You see that's all I say. And yeah it's not all apples to apples though.

   Apparently Destiny got some good political takes and good conversationalist.....

 

 

   Rap Elvis: If I tell a lie, stop me.

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

2 hours ago, OBEler said:

@mmKay where did I say Nazis were not corrupt? Of course they were.

"Lead a normal life and feel free to cancel if you don't want to do some dirty tasks"? Do you understand  what politely declining a task from that corrupt regime means for your family , business and possessions?"

I probably do more understand than you do if you think you will be immediately deported. I even have personal evidence, a family member, he was in the SS, refused to work at a concentration camp because it was traumatic for him to do this dirty job. So what happened? Nothing really. No punishment at all. he took another job which had nothing to do with killing people. He lived a good life until he died in the age of 80.

 

Interesting that I need to position myself if I see Nazis as good or bad. Such a black and white view I don't have. I am only interested in what was true. And as reality is complex , so is the behavior of Nazis. At the end they were human beings, or at least partly humans. So there is a lot of ambiguity in my posts here because if you want to hear the truth and not the repeated propaganda story things get complex and sometimes paradox.

But if you really want a position from me, fine : I am against the image of Nazi Germany created by Hollywood war movies (inglorious bastards etc) and call of duty games. It's a distorted view of how it really was and many of you are brainwashed by this as I can also see in this thread. Most Nazis were not sadistic, narcistic psychos but total normal people like me and you who had probably their best times in their lifes in Nazi Germany until they lost the war. 

People today think that Germans were either total stupid or forced to participate in Hitler regime. But the truth is most Germans were willfully participating in it and glorified the Hitler regime. Hitler raised to country out of misery. And not only conservatives were Nazis, from all kind of classes. It was a unified country and there was not so much pressure needed to create this like people here think (no North Korea style). 

   Putting aside your appeals to subjectivity, anecdote, false equivalency, and appeals to ambiguity, why do you think you don't need to take a more good/bad positioning towards Nazi Germany when in an argument? Do you not think you need to check if your argumentation for a Nazi Germany calling themselves a socialist party instead of conservative party a valid/invalid, weak/strong argument back against @Leo Gura?

   So your new argument and position is instead of this semantics issue with @Leo Gura, you're against the new images of Nazis portrayed by Hollywood war movies. like Inglorious Bastards for example, and within the gaming industry that made Call Of Duty. Is the reason why you're against Hollywood and western media portrayal of Nazis due to them being Jewish/Zionist directors? Is it due to the Jewish elite ruling Hollywood and media overall? If most people's views are distorted and brainwashed by Inglorious Bastards and Call Of Duty, and by Hollywood?

   If you think Nazis in Nazi Germany were totally normal people and not psychos, narcissistic sadists, then why would totally normal people allow the holocaust to happen, ethnic and racial discrimination to happen, and destruction of libraries to happen during Nazi Germany? Is that a normal person's behavior, to destroy libraries, and ethnically cleanse an area like that?

[Danioover9000]

@Leo Gura

On 2024-03-26 at 7:16 PM, Leo Gura said:

I don't give a fuck about Destiny. His political views are intelligent, nuanced, and moderate. If I see him saying something blantantly wrong I will let you know.

   Would this cu** as something blatantly wrong in framing and defining what's Nazism?

https://x.com/TheOmniLiberal/status/1773064937931165970?s=20

[Danioover9000]

   Just based on these tweets alone:

   Is enough grounds and basis to disqualify Destiny as some important source and arguer, or even a valid arguer of any political commentary he does. Due to the toxic nature and background of him as an online gamer, live streamer, and 'debatebro', easily dismisses him as some credible example of some good takes on political commentary. The fact I have to spell it out to ALL OF YOU, that Destiny is not to be trusted so easily is astounding!

   I'm not spreading drama! Don't pull that card on me, I'm spreading awareness how he twists and lies and has bad takes on foreign policy. Learn to critically think for yourself and observe, which is it's best to put aside one's ideological dogma and just observe!

@OBEler Same goes to you too, not to the many other users arguing about you. All must think critically and observe.

[OBEler]

@Danioover9000 I don't understand your last post, what exactly do you want from me? I don't get the context 

 

"Is it due to the Jewish elite ruling Hollywood and media overall? If most people's views are distorted and brainwashed by Inglorious Bastards and Call Of Duty, and by Hollywood?"

It doesn't matter if the director is Jewish. What matters is if they spread a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one.

I have the feeling you are biased and are not interested in truth. Because you cannot handle what normal people are capable of.

Edited March 27 by OBEler

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

6 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Danioover9000 I don't understand your last post, what exactly do you want from me? I don't get the context 

 

"Is it due to the Jewish elite ruling Hollywood and media overall? If most people's views are distorted and brainwashed by Inglorious Bastards and Call Of Duty, and by Hollywood?"

It doesn't matter if the director is Jewish. What matters is if they spread a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one.

   Okay, doesn't matter if the director is Jewish, but what matters is if they're spreading a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one, did I get that right? So who are you referring to here when you said 'if they spread a correct image of what really happened in history and not a distorted one.'? People at Hollywood? And could you show me how they are spreading a distorted image of the Nazis and Nazi Germany? What would be the more correct image of them, and what would be your solution to encourage them to correct these images?

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler  My solution to correct these distortions for example is to tell others to read more history books, documentaries, and biographies, even go read some wikipedia and other sources. I even consume a wide variety of sources, and minimize intaking garbage information.

[Inliytened1]

On 3/26/2024 at 6:24 AM, Leo Gura said:

What you have to understand is that the far-right mind is full of shit. It talks out of both sides of its mouth. It's not an internally coherent intellectual system. It's a loose network of fears, hatreds, disgust, dogma, myths, and rationalizations.

As I said, if you go far-right far enough you overturn your own traditions. This is not a mistake in my analysis. A far-right Islamic fundamentalist does not truly observe the tradition of Islam.

Hitler was above all an ego-maniac like Trump. So of course he wanted to put his own stamp on things. It takes humility to blindly follow tradition as Mike Pence does.

All you have to do to see that Nazism is conservative is to look at the kind of people who find it appealing, and the type of people Nazis consider their enemies.

Who finds it appealing?

Conservatives!

Who are it enemies? Who did Hitler kill?

Liberals!

Hitler didn't kill liberals- he killed anyone who wasn't blonde haired and blued eyed - and a Nazi - namely the Jews.  Why would one even care about a political stance here.   This was much more than politics.  

Edited March 27 by Inliytened1