Leo you misunderstand Hitler completely

[Leo Gura]

@OBEler Why do you distinguish between right-wing and conservative?

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Mormegil said:

I always saw it that their is a ton of overlap between conservatives and Nazis, so Nazis have to be conservatives as well by nature. But they have perverted the conservative world view (just like they perverted anything else they touched) and took it too a degree where a normie conservative (even a right one) should not follow them. 

Of course! That's what extremism entails.

A very moderate Nazi is just a friendly conservative.

A TRUE Christian is rare as a hen's tooth. So that doesn't mean much in political discourse, which deals with large averages.

Since most people do not think, they follow, they are easily seduced by extremists.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

13 minutes ago, Mormegil said:

But they have perverted the conservative world view (just like they perverted anything else they touched) and took it too a degree where a normie conservative (even a right one) should not follow them. 

Reminds me of this

 

[bebotalk]

Hitler was as are most fascists socially conservative. The OP is splitting hairs. There are also various strands of conservative thought but the Nazis did believe in traditional values, even if Hitler said one shouldn't be wholly wedded to the past. 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Yimpa Getting nearly hung has a way of sharpening one's vision 

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@OBEler Why do you distinguish between right-wing and conservative?

Because right-wing is a much broader term which can include conservative.However while the Nazis operated on the far-right of the political spectrum with its authoritarian and nationalist policies, its radicalism, totalitarianism, and racial ideology place it outside the bounds of traditional conservatism.

It's essential to recognize these distinctions to understand the specific nature of Nazi ideology. That's what I try here to point out the whole time.

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, OBEler said:

Because right-wing is a much broader term which can include conservative.However while the Nazis operated on the far-right of the political spectrum with its authoritarian and nationalist policies, its radicalism, totalitarianism, and racial ideology place it outside the bounds of traditional conservatism.

It's essential to recognize these distinctions to understand the specific nature of Nazi ideology. That's what I try here to point out the whole time.

You can achieve that same result by having degrees of conservative.

There are psycho-conservatives.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

Conservative vs liberal is actually a much deeper category than most people assume.

We could scan people's brains and determine whether they are one or the other.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A TRUE Christian is rarer as a hen's tooth. 

What do you mean by TRUE Christian? Mystics like Meister Eckhart?

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura while it's possible to discuss varying degrees of conservatism and liberalism, placing Nazism within this framework as merely a more extreme form of conservatism oversimplifies and misrepresents both the ideology itself and the broader spectrum of conservative thought. The fundamental differences in principles, goals, and methods necessitate distinguishing between extreme right-wing fascism and conservatism, even at its most traditional or reactionary.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, OBEler said:

The fundamental differences in principles, goals, and methods necessitate distinguishing between extreme right-wing fascism and conservatism, even at its most traditional or reactionary.

You can distinguish them, but there is an obvious pipeline from one to the other. And it works so effectively precisely because most people are not good at distinguishing the two.

It's hard to create a pipeline from leftists to Nazis. Ask yourself why.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

What do you mean by TRUE Christian? Mystics like Meister Eckhart?

Wherever @Mormegil meant. That is his language.

[Phil King]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Conservative vs liberal is actually a much deeper category than most people assume.

We could scan people's brains and determine whether they are one or the other

Where does Libertarian fall on this spectrum?

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Phil King said:

Where does Libertarian fall on this spectrum?

There a right-wing and left-wing libertarians. Most American libertarians are moderately conservative, stage Orange. Most of them are very naive about how society actually works. They are like children.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[OBEler]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can distinguish them, but there is an obvious pipeline from one to the other. And it works so effectively precisely because most people are not good at distinguishing the two.

Yeah I want to distinguish them and hope others will do also. Even if there are pipelines, It's important to maintain clear distinctions between different ideologies. The Nazis were not conservatives in the traditional sense but represented a distinct, extremist form of far-right fascism.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, OBEler said:

The Nazis were not conservatives in the traditional sense but represented a distinct, extremist form of far-right fascism.

Relative semantics.

What you call far-right fascist I call extreme conservative vs traditional conservative.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Deadline]

Hitler is firstly a humanist, then a progressivist, utilitarian, biological darwinist, nationalist. To call him a conservative is definitely partial, but I think it’s fair to also see him as reactionary conservative from that perspective narrative as being anti-degenerate leftist. A mapping to liberal conservative is order/disorder, Hitler like Stalin had no problem with forgoing personal freedoms for the interests of the collective and social order. Pornography for example was banned in Germany and the USSR and not in France 

Edited March 26 by Deadline

[Bobby_2021]

48 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@OBEler Why do you distinguish between right-wing and conservative?

Conservatives vs Liberals is not an accurate assessment. You can be conservative and liberal at the same time. These are two discrete sets of ideologies that can be coopted by left wing or right wing at a point in time.

Individual rights, Free speech is a liberal value, but the right wing is the champion of it at the moment, in the USA which is why the liberal vs conservative comparison doesn't even make sense.

A liberal is not the opposite of a conservative.

Conservatives vs liberals is not on the same spectrum neither are they mutually exclusive.

Left vs Right is a valid comparison since they are on the same spectrum. 

So, are soviet communist dictators libs question is pretty meaningless. They don't have to. They were leftists extremists and they killed 10x more people than right wing fascist Nazis.

Also I wonder why the definition of Fascism applies only to right wing. That some reall bullshit. Leftists dictators are the biggest fascists. To argue otherwise will need some real mental gymnastics. 

[Danioover9000]

@OBEler

5 hours ago, OBEler said:

Hitler was not conservative. You probably consumed propaganda. Just hear original Hitler speeches like this one

 

Hitler said you should have respect of the past but you should not identify with it (big difference !!). You should respect their achievements but that should not mean that what they did is still good.

Hitler said, It is good to build up from ancestors achievements but then put your own will into it. So just copy what the ancestors did is utterly stupid.

A conservative would never said that.

Hitler: Nationalsocialism is based on biological insights and not on ancient tradition.

 

 

 

 

 

 

   I actually agree with your takes here, as argumentatively this:

@Leo Gura

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What you have to understand is that the far-right mind is full of shit. It talks out of both sides of its mouth. It's not an internally coherent intellectual system. It's a loose network of fears, hatreds, disgust, dogma, myths, and rationalizations.

As I said, if you go far-right far enough you overturn your own traditions. This is not a mistake in my analysis. A far-right Islamic fundamentalist does not truly observe the tradition of Islam.

Hitler was above all an ego-maniac like Trump. So of course he wanted to put his own stamp on things. It takes humility to blindly follow tradition as Mike Pence does.

All you have to do to see that Nazism is conservative is to look at the kind of people who find it appealing, and the type of people Nazis consider their enemies.

Who finds it appealing?

Conservatives!

Who are it enemies? Who did Hitler kill?

Liberals!

   Is a weak argument to make. So much ad hominems, judgments, obfuscations, appeals to authority and popularity, red herrings, slippery slopes, and a few other fallacies that an arguer can break down into several sub arguments.

   That being said, when it goes from argumentation into reality, it's both complex and combinatory with other factors involved. But in argumentation it's weak and has some performative contradictions.

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura

While the categorization of political movements can be influenced by perspective and semantics, recognizing the foundational differences in ideology, goals, and methods is key to a thorough understanding and discussion of these topics.

Maybe that's the difference why Germany was so successful in philosophy,science and engineering compared to the rest of the world. We value precision and nuance in our native language when we talk about a topic.