The difference between enlightenment and awakening

[Someone here]

When people like Jim Newman and Tony Parsons say that there is no mind and no need to practice any Sadhna because truth is here and now etc..they are  referring to simple mindfulness and present moment awareness which might lead to enlightenment but not awakening.

The idea is that the mind with its constant chatter and attachment to the past and future can distract us from experiencing the  peace that is always available in the present moment. By letting go of the need to constantly practice and striving for enlightenment  and instead focusing on being fully present in the here and now we can cultivate a sense of inner peace. This perspective is often rooted in various spiritual  tradition such as Buddhism and Advaita Vedanta..but awakening as Leo is teaching and often calls it God-Realization is simply not getting rid of the mind and being blank slates ..but to be completely clear about how we as gods are the creators of reality and literally creating everything.  Leo is basically talking about Omniscience.  That's what awakening is actually According to Leo.  God's omniscience mean that God knows all things..the past..present.and future. God is the source of all knowledge. God also knows all the potentialities of any situation. God knows every possibility from the beginningless beginning to the endless ending of eternity.

Unfortunately  that kind of awakening is impossible without Psychedelics . my sober  knowledge is limited .and our best efforts at understanding are finite. We are trapped by our own experiences in a specific place and time. God’s knowledge is unlimited. And to know all things you must be all things .

Edited March 26 by Someone here

[Leo Gura]

Omniscience is far beyond basic awakening.

Psychedelics are very powerful but awakening is not exclusive to psychedelics.

If you are extremely present for very long periods of time, that can produce awakenings. This is the purpose of long meditation retreats.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[r0ckyreed]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you are extremely present for very long periods of time, that can produce awakenings. This is the purpose of long meditation retreats.

But what about contemplation and curiosity? Being present without curiosity won’t lead to awakening. This is the downside of meditation and shutting off the mind. There are plenty of dogmatic meditators who sit very presently and can access satori’s and samadhis, but this isn’t the same as complete understanding of reality. 

I don’t think meditation can ever lead to the highest levels of understanding because meditation encourages us to shut off the mind rather than to utilize it to explore our curiosity. Do you see how shutting off the mind is only exploring half of reality, whereas using our mind explores the other half.

I am certain that contemplation leads to the highest levels of understanding because contemplation is being deeply curious. Without curiosity and contemplation, even psychedelics and the Buddha himself cannot awaken you. Awakening is a process that happens from within in the same way that medicine helps the body/mind do what it needs to do to heal from within.

All meditation has ever done for me is make me feel happier and peaceful. All of my deepest insights have come from me sitting down and thinking curiously and critically about the present moment or what have you. Correct me if I am wrong, but awakening is about insight and truth rather than my happiness, suffering, and how I feel. Meditation helps more with the latter and contemplation is effective with both.

Edited March 26 by r0ckyreed

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

But what about contemplation and curiosity?

That's not enough. You need a shift in your state of consciousness.

Awakening is much more than an insight, it's a state change.

Of course curiosity is good and important. Although it can actually get in the way of stilling your overactive mind.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[r0ckyreed]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not enough. You need a shift in your state of consciousness.

Awakening is much more than an insight, it's a state change.

Right. Peter Ralston discusses this in his book that contemplation is all about direct consciousness of truth. 

But isn’t an insight a state change?

Does contemplation bring about a deeper state change than meditation? 

All the times I have spent counting my breaths in meditation, I could have spent contemplating a question and gaining a valuable insight. I am not sure how chanting, counting breaths, etc. will bring about the state change. Meditation makes me more blissful and contemplation makes me more insightful.

Edited March 26 by r0ckyreed

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

But isn’t an insight a state change?

Not usually.

And it tends to work the other way around. It's state change which gives you the deep insight.

Warning: Ralston has an usual definition of "state" and "contemplation". He doesn't use those words to mean the same things I mean.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[James123]

Awakening is an insight, enlightenment is realization of True self. Awakening includes thought, enlightenment does not. Enlightenment is simply being where you already are. 

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura 

Can't contemplation awaken you, like meditation?

Are awakenings possible only with meditation and psychedelics?

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@Leo Gura 

Can't contemplation awaken you, like meditation?

In theory anything could awaken you. But in practice few things will.

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura So it's the state change that matters. But how can you determine if others had actual awakenings if they speak like you? If someone told you he or she had an awakening without doing meditation or psychedelics, would you say they were deluding themselves?

[James123]

1 minute ago, Nemra said:

@Leo Gura So it's the state change that matters. But how can you determine if others had actual awakenings if they speak like you? If someone told you he or she had an awakening without doing meditation or psychedelics, would you say they were deluding themselves?

After enlightenment there will be no others nor you. 

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@Leo Gura So it's the state change that matters. But how can you determine if others had actual awakenings if they speak like you?

It is hard to know anything about another's 1st person experience.

But you can interogate them and get clues.

You can ask them, What is God? And you can quickly see of they have any clue.

Quote

If someone told you he or she had an awakening without doing meditation or psychedelics, would you say they were deluding themselves?

No. It can happen.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura Do you think you can awaken someone with your content? I don't think you would be awakened or reach higher states without psychedelics. Am I wrong?

50 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can ask them, What is God? And you can quickly see of they have any clue.

Can't someone delude himself enough to speak of the same things as you do?

I agree with you that techniques have their limits. I think the more the technique is surrounded by human BS, the more it's easy to brainwash yourself.

How do you measure the limits of the techniques?

Would you learn a technique if there's a high possibility of brainwashing yourself with human BS and wasting your time for the same or even better results?

Edited March 26 by Nemra

[Leo Gura]

19 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@Leo Gura Do you think you can awaken someone with your content?

Depends on how you measure it and what you mean.

If someone takes DMT after hearing me speak about it, does that count?

I've had many people tell me they had awakenings from watching my content, but I have no idea how deep it was or if they are kidding themselves, or how much I had to do with it.

Quote

I don't think you would be awakened or reach higher states without psychedelics. Am I wrong?

That played a huge part in my understanding of things.

Quote

Can't someone delude himself enough to speak of the same things as you do?

You can parrot stuff, but it's really hard to speak coherently about God without direct experience of it.

Laymen may be fooled, but it's very aparent to me who speaks from experience and who is just conceptualizing.

Quote

How do you measure the limits of the techniques?

This work is not clinical enough for such measurements. It's fly by feel.

Quote

Would you learn a technique if there's a high possibility of brainwashing yourself with human BS and wasting your time for the same or even better results?

A technique by itself contains little human BS. The human BS is the whole intellectual system surrounding the technique.

So I never worry about techniques themselves. I wish people would simply do more techniques and less talking. It's the endless talking and theorizing that's the problem.

Edited March 26 by Leo Gura

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, James123 said:

After enlightenment there will be no others nor you. 

surrender to enlightment kills you, that's why I keep denying the truth. Is impossible to truly accept the truth. How can you live in enlightment all the time? is death

[r0ckyreed]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Warning: Ralston has a usual definition of "state" and "contemplation". He doesn't use those words to mean the same things I mean.

What are you meaning by state and contemplation? From my understanding, you view contemplation as deeply thinking about something and state as one’s level of consciousness.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, r0ckyreed said:

What are you meaning by state and contemplation? From my understanding, you view contemplation as deeply thinking about something and state as one’s level of consciousness.

That's what I mean.

His meaning is more specialized and particular to him.

[Nemra]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A technique by itself contains little human BS. The human BS is the whole intellectual system surrounding the technique.

Yeah, I meant that.

Why wouldn't it be mostly BS? Can't you brainwash yourself into thinking that you're awakened by doing the techniques?

I've had some minor awakenings, and I can tell that a lot of people, especially in the religious and spiritual circles near me, haven't even reached that, but they talk as if they have gone beyond what I have reached, even if mine is minor. Either I'm wrong about them or they are totally brainwashed.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

they are totally brainwashed

Yes, of course. Because they aren't only doing the techniques, they are brainwashing themselves with spiritual ideas for decades.

[James123]

58 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

surrender to enlightment kills you, that's why I keep denying the truth. Is impossible to truly accept the truth. How can you live in enlightment all the time? is death

Without any thinking/thought.