Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Yimpa]

7 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Where did you see Leo saying on this thread or you mean in general? As I stand corrected and @Twentyfirst will agree with me, a truly peace will happen is when one will permanently leave. There is just no other way around. I mean its nice to see love and hugs but lets be realistic. Its not feasible and not possible. Its like having two men love one woman, they will never share her (well I personally would never done that and most will neither). We need to accept this reality. Anything else will guarantee a catastrophe. You want to play the game, fine, but the result will be the same. 

Nonsense.

[hundreth]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Israel has done this to Gaza countless times. 

No matter how many times you try to equate Israel's actions with Hamas, it's never going to stick. Sorry. 

Quote

- it’s entirely possible this only strengthens Hamas based on the worlds reaction

- what evidence do you have continuing the war creates long term peace where a ceasefire wouldn’t. If they go to war in Lebanon because of this will you continue this claim?

- Israel’s attempts to show “strength” over and over are exactly what resulted in Oct 7. You’re just insisting Israel continue its now proven failed policies.
On the other hand the last time Israel attempted peace with with Oslo accords got the PLO to eventually give up armed resistance.

Maybe, maybe not. The alternative is, Hamas comes to your country, brutally murders and kidnaps your people, and you reward them for it. That's absurd. What message does that send? Think about it.

Do you know what happened immediately preceding Oct 7th? Israel increased their work permits and cooperation with Gaza.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20709/israel-work-permits-palestinians

Quote

Again, what is your proof this is “ripping the bandaid off”, when IDF themselves are saying they can’t completely beat Hamas.

Why will the “ripping the bandaid off” strategy work here now when it failed before. There were groups preceding Hamas Israel destroyed, they also destroyed Hamas entire leadership before. Yet here we are.

There is no proof of anything, neither of us have proof our proposals will benefit anyone. What is your proof your ridiculous proposal of rewarding Oct 7th would work? 

Ripping the band-aid dismantles much of Hamas' capabilities at least in the short term and sends a message this type of attack will not be tolerated. What happens next depends on many factors. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anyone has a day after plan. 

Quote

The same reason Israel doesn’t just arrest everyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

1. When Hamas sacrifices Palestinians, they use the same justification, a cold calculating decision

2. I already linked you a IDF leak saying they purposefully wait until the suspected militant leaves military operations and fire on their home 

3. IDF have used human shields multiple times 

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_palestinian_girl_as_a_human_shield_in_jenin

https://www.dci-palestine.org/israeli_forces_use_five_palestinian_children_as_human_shields

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/israel-gaza-idf-used-palestinians-as-human-shields-1200-occasions-in-last-five-years-say-israeli-defence-officials/30483468.html

Like I said, no matter how many times you try to equate the deranged actions of Hamas, it never works. It's really just blind rationalization. There are specific instances when the IDF goes too far, but every Hamas action is heinous and causes extreme damage to everyone in the region including the Palestinians. Hamas has kept the entire Gazan population hostage, and if Israel did literally nothing they would still have little opportunity because of Hamas.

[Gennadiy1981]

29 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Nonsense.

Fine don't believe me but it will happen over and over. You will see that i am right.

Besides, no peace will happen until Messiah comes. 

[Raze]

4 minutes ago, hundreth said:

No matter how many times you try to equate Israel's actions with Hamas, it's never going to stick. Sorry. 

You said:

”You cannot allow a group to come in, murder and kidnap your populace, and then reward them with a ceasefire”

That is objectively what Israel did to Gaza in its regular bombardments. They came, kill and arrest, declare a ceasefire and leave. They even give it a name “mowing the grass”.

 

12 minutes ago, hundreth said:

 

Maybe, maybe not. The alternative is, Hamas comes to your country, brutally murders and kidnaps your people, and you reward them for it. That's absurd. What message does that send? Think about it.

Do you know what happened immediately preceding Oct 7th? Israel increased their work permits and cooperation with Gaza.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/20709/israel-work-permits-palestinians

 

So even if the war ends up strengthening Hamas or another group, causes a wider war, and ends up killing far more Israelis you still support it.

Ok… then don’t say you value life

Yes it’s true they did that. What they also did was 

- keep Gaza in a blockade so strict 40% of the populace is unemployed and the majority of water sources are contaminated 

- continue expanding settlements in the West Bank and allowing settler violence to the point where 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children prior to Oct 7

- kill over 2,000 in a 2014 bombardment of Gaza so large the majority of Gazan children showed signs of PTSD

- kill over 200 in a peaceful protest in 2018 where snipers targeted medics and journalists purposefully shooting knees off to create life changing injury

11 minutes ago, hundreth said:

There is no proof of anything, neither of us have proof our proposals will benefit anyone. What is your proof your ridiculous proposal of rewarding Oct 7th would work? 

Ripping the band-aid dismantles much of Hamas' capabilities at least in the short term and sends a message this type of attack will not be tolerated. What happens next depends on many factors. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem anyone has a day after plan. 

Ok proof was a bad term, let’s say logic.

The logic of a ceasefire

- all hostages returned safely 

- stops or at least slows down the growing hatred of Israel worldwide 

- stops hezbollah attacks 

The logic of continuing the war 

- IDF spokesman himself said Hamas cannot be destroyed, they recruit from orphans so the more orphans created the more they can expand 

- Hezbollah continues rocket attacks and may cause an all out war with Israel 

- given Israel has only saved 7 hostages and killed at least 3 (probably 5 if you believe the released hostages) many of the other hostages will remain in captivity or be killed in the fighting 

- continued growth in anti Israel sentiment worldwide causing future extremism against Israel

Given that almost every single other country in the UN, the majority of the US population, and a significant minority of Israelis also support the ceasefire, maybe it’s actually not that ridiculous.

17 minutes ago, hundreth said:

 

 

 

Like I said, no matter how many times you try to equate the deranged actions of Hamas, it never works. It's really just blind rationalization. There are specific instances when the IDF goes too far, but every Hamas action is heinous and causes extreme damage to everyone in the region including the Palestinians. Hamas has kept the entire Gazan population hostage, and if Israel did literally nothing they would still have little opportunity because of Hamas.

- I’m not equating them, Israel has killed easily 10x the amount of civilians as Hamas 

- the IDF are the ones blockading Gaza, they keep Gaza hostage

- the Israel government funded Hamas, they are also responsible for them 

- Hamas isn’t in control of the West Bank, Hamas isn’t the obstacle here and yet, the conditions there are so brutal even some zionist Israelis and idf who visit come away shocked, since the war Israel is expanding settlements and settlers have killed hundreds. 

[Yimpa]

3 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Fine don't believe me but it will happen over and over. You will see that i am right.

Besides, no peace will happen until Messiah comes. 

You are right.

Who is Messiah? 

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

You said:

”You cannot allow a group to come in, murder and kidnap your populace, and then reward them with a ceasefire”

That is objectively what Israel did to Gaza in its regular bombardments. They came, kill and arrest, declare a ceasefire and leave. They even give it a name “mowing the grass”.

So even if the war ends up strengthening Hamas or another group, causes a wider war, and ends up killing far more Israelis you still support it.

I'm not going to respond point by point just to avoid going in circles. The idea behind "mowing the grass" is to push back Hamas for short term peace in response to attacks. That's literally what is going on now, this is a giant mowing of the grass so to speak. 

What is Hamas' rationale? What does Oct 7 achieve? All of their actions are a lose-lose for everyone. 

But ok, let's entertain your idea of rewarding Oct 7 as an alternative. Let's put our weapons down and calmly speak with Hamas and say "Ok, you brutally murdered our people, live streamed it, celebrated, took hostages... we get it, you're upset. How many prisoners do you want back?"'

What do you think happens next? Those same Hamas militants who brutally murdered in cold blood are going to think "Wow, look how great these Jews are... maybe let's stop with the attacks?"

It's laughable. Unfortunately Hamas will never be a negotiating partner. The sooner Hamas is replaced, the sooner something meaningful can actually happen.

[Gennadiy1981]

11 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

You are right.

Who is Messiah? 

I can't tell you that. Man you need to read the Holly Bible. Do a research, spent time regurgitating stuff and you will understand.  

[Gennadiy1981]

@hundreth @Raze I see both arguments but guys you are missing a very big point and until you will understand that point there is no way you can go forward. Hamas' main objection is the elimination of Israel, thats in their charter, even if one member will ok, this is going against their organizational principle. This is what their organization was founded on, this is what their mission statement is, you need to respect that. And before Oct 7th they were sending rockets to Israel, they started I believe from 2006 once they got the power, or maybe two weeks after, something along those lines. They want the State of Israel be gone from the face of the map. And they clearly will not agree to any Israel of any shape or size because they claim they also represent Palestinians who live on Israel's proper (whatever you guys call). Now accept that, and then lets start having conversations. 

[Danioover9000]

@Gennadiy1981

22 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Raze as far as Israel killed another hostage that’s not an official info. Is it possible, of course it’s war, war is a terrible thing, it’s just sometimes it’s terribly necessary. 
 

You keep pointing out about Hamas and cease fire, I think you are over simplifying picture that it’s Hamas who wants and not Israel and it’s not necessarily true. First of all, when Hamas abducted people, you think they didn’t expect they would get this mess? Any self respecting country would have done the same or even worse, especially if they did that shit to USA, I would say Gaza would not even exist and would be totally under USA.

 

And second of all, do you think Hamas just abducted people and then easily would say ok let’s end this all? Are you serious? You think they practiced so long and just to end that easy? And besides the initial cease fire that was made back in December I believe but don’t quote me, it was precisely that to get hostages but Hamas asked for more than was agreed and the deal collapsed. You need to view the entire geopolitical situation. Of course we will want hostages back, that’s not even a question but the problem is if Netanyahu goes that route it will set a dangerous precedence for others to kidnap and then demand on their accorse. So you need to really think here wise. 
 

@Danioover9000 I see we started to communicate often here, I guess we are friends now. 🤪. To answer your question about feeding. First of all I watched the videos of hostages who were not fed well, but regardless, don’t abduct them and you don’t need to feed them at all. Listen I am sure you would not be happy to be abducted and feed bbq or caviar and stay in the cage in the meanwhile. 

   Oh, we're having a conversation? I thought it's one sided role playing truth and dare. I the truth, and you are the lying hare! Rabbi-t hip hop here and there, beware snares of death. Entering Medusa's lair, petrified? Don't care! Before the Draco slayer, crumple under my death glare!

   Oh biggity Gennadiy1981, a 1 from 10 mil in hidey hole bunks, yuck! Ostrich Auschwitz awfully god's folly: awe fully in one's lying hubris despite debris surrounding thee beyond knees deep, in others peeps bones and meats more than the eyes, your peeps be stealing lines! OMG HAMMAs are bastards and gangsters! Chill wangster, here a prescription: get Hyundai! HHHIIIGGGHHH OOONNN DDDYYYEEE!!! Or go switcheroo like birdie coo coo, lay a deceitful egg in the nest that begs the question, until a tree snake snacks on the bigger egg!  

Edited June 25 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

25 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

You are right.

Who is Messiah? 

   A messy guy no one gives one Iota!

[hundreth]

6 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@hundreth @Raze I see both arguments but guys you are missing a very big point and until you will understand that point there is no way you can go forward. Hamas' main objection is the elimination of Israel, thats in their charter, even if one member will ok, this is going against their organizational principle. This is what their organization was founded on, this is what their mission statement is, you need to respect that. And before Oct 7th they were sending rockets to Israel, they started I believe from 2006 once they got the power, or maybe two weeks after, something along those lines. They want the State of Israel be gone from the face of the map. And they clearly will not agree to any Israel of any shape or size because they claim they also represent Palestinians who live on Israel's proper (whatever you guys call). Now accept that, and then lets start having conversations. 

I agree. As I said, Hamas will never be a negotiating partner.

If you reward Hamas, they gain influence and we are further from peace. If you hit them back, they are stationed among civilians and create new Hamas. It is a lose-lose situation for everyone.

The only difference is that when you retaliate, they have less capabilities to hurt you again in the short term. It's like negotiating with a literal cancer.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

11 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I agree. As I said, Hamas will never be a negotiating partner.

If you reward Hamas, they gain influence and we are further from peace. If you hit them back, they are stationed among civilians and create new Hamas. It is a lose-lose situation for everyone.

The only difference is that when you retaliate, they have less capabilities to hurt you again in the short term. It's like negotiating with a literal cancer.

   I know right?! So difficult to negotiate with cancers YOUR COMPANY CREATED IN THE FIRST PLACE! 

 

[Gennadiy1981]

On 6/21/2024 at 11:57 PM, zazen said:

Fundamentalist religious people (shadow of stage blue) take end time prophecies that are myth as literal, and self fulfil them into existence to hasten whatever good they are promised from it (coming of a Messiah and the return of Jesus).

Many problems come from taking myth that is fiction for a fact that is literal, not realising that the value of fiction is in its functionality, rather than its factuality.

Fundamentalists view prophets as the spokespeople of God, rather than the spokesperson on God. As if prophets have a direct hotline to God and lecture us Gods message - when existence is a conversation not a lecture.

Prophets are cosmic philosophers, not cosmic commanders. The movie series Dune actually shows quite well how fundamentalists belief in prophecy and prophets are used for political ends and power.

That doesn’t deny there were prophets who awakened to certain degrees. It’s just important to remember that they were speaking to and from their own time. Treating them as eternal mouthpieces of God ignores the context, culture and limitations of their era.

Forget the military-industrial complex; the power-prophecy-profits complex, which intertwines with religion, is far more dangerous. Daniel Schmachtenberger discusses the concept of “Moloch” as a metaphor for competitive systems that are destructive not due to a deliberate intent to destroy but because of incentives that drive us toward destruction. In the power-prophecy-profits complex, the prophecy element includes an intent to fulfill those prophecies that steer us towards WW3.

** Thanks for providing your life story above to get where you’re coming from.

Hi @zazen I read and thought a lot on what you have said and you are right there, but...

There is this thing that bothers me or should I say i have an internal struggle with and believe it or not, were the prophets spokespeople on God or for God. I will tell you even one step further, especially when i start to do the awakening work, I would go one step further and say that the prophecy is a bullshit as Leo stated few times. But then, how do you expect what they have said turned out to be true. And again i am not speaking of something what they prophesied few thousand years ago back then what was happening, its hard to say as maybe the events were backtracked and the credit to them was given. Even to some moderate clairvoyants like Nostradamus, again many could have backtracked and we cannot know for sure. We can only speak somersetting what either we ourselves or perhaps our parents who are here to tell us.

Now Ia m an honest man, if there is something true, it would only be fair for me to acknowledge. Since I am Jewish and I am pretty verse in my religious portion for which i can speak off, lets take example with Israel, how the prophecies all came true, and those were prophesied few thousand years ago and how accurate they are. And this is something that happened within my grandparents time and even during our time.

Pardon me, but I want to quote some bible items for educational purpose below so I am not making those claim form empty mouth. 

(Deuterenomy 29:21-27) And the generation to come, your children that shall rise up after you, and the foreigner that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, that the whole land has only sulfur and salt, and burning, it does not give its produce nor anything can be grown on it, like it was after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah… You know that until 20th century Israel was a desolate place, a desert, only I believe 3 cities were inhabited, the rest was dead, and you can find from writings of Dio Cassius, Count Constantine Frangois Volney, an eighteenth-century French author and historian who wrote, the Palestine is ruined and desolate land. “Many parts ... lost almost all their peasantry. In others.... the recession was great but not so total. "the greater part of the provinces are impoverished and laid waste." Or better yet read Mark Twain in his writings “The Innocents Abroad”, just to quote a few but there are more.

In the ancient book Zohar, chapter Exodus, 32a, Rabbi Yossi discusses with Rabbi  Hiya that when the children of Jacob (Jews) will come back to land, the Chldren of Ismael (Arabs) will greet with war. The return of Jews back to Israel is mentioned by (Ezekiel 37:12), “Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.” Basically saying that Jews would return to Israel almsot form graves, and thats true after Holocaust you can sya we were partially in graves. Then he continues that once Jews come back the land shall become furtile again, (Ezekiel 36:8) “O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to My people Israel; for they are at hand to come.”  Same as (Isaiah 61:4) “And they shall rebuild the eternal ruins, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall renew the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.” Mode tail can be found in Talmud Sanhedrin 98a. 

Prophet (Ezekiel 38:8-9, 22) says that Jews will have to fight their way to get Israel back  “In the end of times, they shall come against the land that is brought back from the sword, that is gathered out of many peoples, against the mountains of Israel, which have been a continual waste;

And this is my favorite, Talmud (Masekhet Makkot 24b), speaks of four great Rabbis at the time when Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, "Rabban Gamliel, Rabbi Elazar ben Azaryah, Rabbi Yehoshua and Rabbi Akiva were walking towards Jerusalem. When they arrived at the Temple Mount, they saw a fox running out of the area where the Holy of Holies had been. They began to cry, while Rabbi Akiva laughed.""They said to him, 'Why are you laughing?'" - "He responded, 'Why are you crying?'"

The Rabbi reply, "'In front of us is the place that says, 'And the stranger who enters there, shall die,' we see a fox coming out, how can we not cry?'"Rabbi Akiva answered "'For that very reason, I am laughing. Isaiah the Prophet said, 'I will bring two reliable witnesses regarding my People, Uriah the Priest and Zechariah the prophet.'(Isaiah 8:2)  'Uriah quotes 'Therefore, because of you, Zion will be plowed under like a field.' (Uriah 3:12) In the case of Zechariah, we find, 'Yet again, elderly men and elderly women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem. And the streets of the city will be full of children, playing in her streets.'” (Zechariah 8:4-5). When Rabbi Akiva saw Uriah's prophecy coming true with the fox, he said that he has no doubt that the Zechariah's prophecy would come true. And walk on the streets of Jerusalem today, you will see elderly men and women sitting on the benches in the shadow of white buildings and you hear children's joy and the prophecy of Zachariah fully came to realization.

By the way i can go on and on, but dont want to bore you. I can provide thousand of mroe quotes and thats being modest, but how can you say those people bullshitted hen they predicted such. And if they predicted such details, and they claim they were messengers from God, how can I now close my eyes and let it go?

[Merkabah Star]

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

I just wanted to add that on this specific point I think Israel made a tactical error by harming too many civilians vs militants. I believe if the IDF's ratio was better and they were more careful, both Hezbollah and the international community at large would understand. 

Even if Israel was walking on eggshells, there would still be tons of criticism - but not at the scale you see today.

So true. No one has a problem with Hamas being killed. 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@hundreth @Raze I see both arguments but guys you are missing a very big point and until you will understand that point there is no way you can go forward. Hamas' main objection is the elimination of Israel, thats in their charter, even if one member will ok, this is going against their organizational principle. This is what their organization was founded on, this is what their mission statement is, you need to respect that. And before Oct 7th they were sending rockets to Israel, they started I believe from 2006 once they got the power, or maybe two weeks after, something along those lines. They want the State of Israel be gone from the face of the map. And they clearly will not agree to any Israel of any shape or size because they claim they also represent Palestinians who live on Israel's proper (whatever you guys call). Now accept that, and then lets start having conversations. 

- their charter no longer says that

- Hamas offered a ceasefire in exchange for a state multiple times

- Hamas doesn’t control the West Bank yet Israel still lets settlers have their way there

- When Hamas took power in 2006 they offered a ceasefire right away, Israel tried to overthrow them then blockaded them

- you support Netanyahu even though he purposefully empowered and funded Hamas

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

I'm not going to respond point by point just to avoid going in circles. The idea behind "mowing the grass" is to push back Hamas for short term peace in response to attacks. That's literally what is going on now, this is a giant mowing of the grass so to speak. 

What is Hamas' rationale? What does Oct 7 achieve? All of their actions are a lose-lose for everyone. 

But ok, let's entertain your idea of rewarding Oct 7 as an alternative. Let's put our weapons down and calmly speak with Hamas and say "Ok, you brutally murdered our people, live streamed it, celebrated, took hostages... we get it, you're upset. How many prisoners do you want back?"'

What do you think happens next? Those same Hamas militants who brutally murdered in cold blood are going to think "Wow, look how great these Jews are... maybe let's stop with the attacks?"

It's laughable. Unfortunately Hamas will never be a negotiating partner. The sooner Hamas is replaced, the sooner something meaningful can actually happen.

So in summary you don’t value lives and prefer to sacrifice life for political aims. That’s fine, but don’t pretend otherwise.

Military analysts are claiming Hamas is recruiting by the thousand and polls indicate Israel’s support has fallen world wide. Oct 7 didn’t achieve much for Hamas, but Israel’s violent response has however achieved a lot for them.

Edited June 25 by Raze

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

So in summary you don’t value lives and prefer to sacrifice life for political aims. That’s fine, but don’t pretend otherwise.

I don't see anywhere at all where I said anything like this.

I was pleased to see you were conversing in good faith, but I'm really not a fan of the reductionist straw-man bullshit.  Have a good one.

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

- their charter no longer says that

- Hamas offered a ceasefire in exchange for a state multiple times

- Hamas doesn’t control the West Bank yet Israel still lets settlers have their way there

- When Hamas took power in 2006 they offered a ceasefire right away, Israel tried to overthrow them then blockaded them

- you support Netanyahu even though he purposefully empowered and funded Hamas

So in summary you don’t value lives and prefer to sacrifice life for political aims. That’s fine, but don’t pretend otherwise.

Military analysts are claiming Hamas is recruiting by the thousand and polls indicate Israel’s support has fallen world wide. Oct 7 didn’t achieve much for Hamas, but Israel’s violent response has however achieved a lot for them.

   Netanyahu funded HAMMAs?!😲

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

3 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I don't see anywhere at all where I said anything like this.

I was pleased to see you were conversing in good faith, but I'm really not a fan of the reductionist straw-man bullshit.  Have a good one.

   To remind you, you were doing it to @Raze first though, with your technical hypothetical. You baited him into a straw maning your take.

[Raze]

29 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I don't see anywhere at all where I said anything like this.

I was pleased to see you were conversing in good faith, but I'm really not a fan of the reductionist straw-man bullshit.  Have a good one.

No, I’m just tired of the claim Israel values “life” followed by justifying Israel specifically avoiding solutions that save lives. I believe I just had this argument with Vrubel a week or so ago.

If you want to argue a move that sacrifices lives is worth it for other reasons, that’s fine, but you can’t turn around and say you value life above all else if you’re specifically advocating for a strategy that loses lives.

A ceasefire would save lives, point blank, the lives of the hostages, the Gazans, the idf soldiers, and anyone who would die from a possible Lebanon conflict.

If you say there shouldn’t be a ceasefire for various other reasons, whether those reasons are correct or not, that is not you valuing life above all else.

If I was engaged in a firefight outside of your house, and you told me I’m risking your life by it, and I said that I will still do it because I have a different goal, even if I’m right about my goal, I’m choosing to not prioritize your life because I’m putting a different goal above protecting it.

Edited June 25 by Raze

[hundreth]

14 minutes ago, Raze said:

No, I’m just tired of the claim Israel values “life” followed by justifying Israel specifically avoiding solutions that save lives. I believe I just had this argument with Vrubel a week or so ago.

If you want to argue a move that sacrifices lives is worth it for other reasons, that’s fine, but you can’t turn around and say you value life above all else if you’re specifically advocating for a strategy that loses lives.

A ceasefire would save lives, point blank, the lives of the hostages, the Gazans, the idf soldiers, and anyone who would die from a possible Lebanon conflict.

If you say there shouldn’t be a ceasefire for various other reasons, whether those reasons are correct or not, that is not you valuing life above all else.

If I was engaged in a firefight outside of your house, and you told me I’m risking your life by it, and I said that I will still do it because I have a different goal, even if I’m right about my goal, I’m choosing to not prioritize your life because I’m putting a different goal above protecting it.

I argued that you have to balance saving lives now vs. later because of follow up Hamas attacks. I think I was very clear.

By your logic no military operation is ever justifiable because you "don't value life."

I was just quoted a few minutes ago for sharing that Israel made a big mistake by harming too many Palestinian civilians. I was called out for being too apologetic. I have this sentiment both for those Palestinians and the resulting harm it has done to Israel on the international stage which you spoke to.

Edited June 25 by hundreth