Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

What do they gain from Israel? You said "billions of weapons sold".

So does Ukraine, so does Saudi. I do not see this type of support for them.

USA used to be quite antisemetic until the end of the second world war (they did not allow many Nazis to be trialed for war crimes).

What changed so much?

 

From what I can see the CIA and DOD created a US/Irsael/Saudi axis against Iran and the rest of the Middle East. And now they play out that chess game. They are too invested in it to change.

A similar situation stands with NATO/Ukriane vs Russia.

And all the public talk and policy is just posturing and PR to quell the plebs.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The commom value is rampant capitalism

In the core I would say the individual freedom to lead his life as he wants to. This is the real glue behind the scenes. This western value easily being taken for granted because we are fishes swimming in it for decades.

[Davino]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

From what I can see the CIA and DOD created a US/Irsael/Saudi axis against Iran and the rest of the Middle East. And now they play out that chess game. They are too invested in it to change.

Oh, now I got it. This was the piece that I wasn't clearly seeing

[Nivsch]

19 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Not really, some of EU which would be the pinnacle of democracy and respect of law (Scandinavia for example) have openly said Israel is doing war crimes. USA is not objective here, neither is UK. What baffles me is that they are willing to destroy their interntional reputation for such a small country.

I live in Europe and i have read about how Israeli treats Palestinians. It is out of the world for us Europeans to even do 1/10 of the devilry that Israel does. There is no apartheid in Europe.

Josep Borrell: EU must choose between rule of law and Israel | DW News (youtube.com)

Common values? Apartheid, starvation of civilians, racism, carpet bombing or genocidal statements are not "European values". Neither is shutting down media (like they did with Al Jazera) nor not allowing millions of the Palestinians in the West Bank to vote.

Give me a break...

 

You are looking on this from a narrow limited view which is very far from being the whole picture.

And yes, if any country in europe were get trapped in such an existential threat the young Israel has been in, they would also built very strong schemes in their minds about the societies of their surrounding countries, do gross generalizations and do the exact same mistakes Israel has fallen into. France even admitted at the beginning of the war it would behave just like Israel and even worse.

Edited May 26 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

In the core I would say the individual freedom to lead his life as he wants to. This is the real glue behind the scenes. This western value easily being taken for granted because we are fishes swimming in it for decades.

The people in power are too selfish to care about the freedoms of others. What they care about is power and money.

"Freedom" is really a code word for "power and money for me and my friends". This is then wrapped in a patriotic or even religous veneer, so it doesn't look like pure self-serving greed, as that would look too crass.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The people in power are too selfish to care about the freedoms of others. What they care about is power and money.

"Freedom" is really a code word for "power and money for me".

Because there is indeed that phenomena of devolving in the spiral the longer your rule last, just as happening now to Bibi became almost purely stage red.

But if you broaden it to the whole government, parliaments, activists and of course voters, all these giant networks of both countries are communicating between each other in ways that I think for sure involving those subconscious values. Especially between relatively developed center-left governments. Of course the power and the ego will mix in all of this, but I think this is only one factor.

Edited May 26 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

just as happening now to Bibi became almost purely stage red.

I don't consider Bibi Red. I consider him squarely Orange/Blue. Red is Hamas.

Edited May 26 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't consider Bibi Red. I consider him squarely Orange/Blue. Red is Hamas.

Ok but the way he sees only his survival and capable to risk the country's foundations if helps him to survive right now, what wasn't the case in most of his rule years.

Edited May 26 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

Hamas has fired a barrage of rockets from Gaza towards Israel - setting off air raid sirens as far away as Tel Aviv for the first time in months.

 

[lina]

https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1794823160086638982 

"There are videos coming out of Rafah today of beheaded babies. Actual beheaded babies that you can see for yourselves - not the beheaded babies that the Israeli authorities invented to justify their genocidal assault, or the ones that Biden falsely claimed to have seen pix of."

 

Is there anything the IDF accused Hamas of doing that they haven't done/ended up actually doing themselves??

When will this nightmare end? Is there anything more radicalizing than actually witnessing such atrocities in real life or even on social media on a daily basis for almost 8 months? 

In my opinion, this is literally the downfall of Zionism and Israel will never recover from this. 

Edited May 27 by lina

[Merkabah Star]

Hope the beheaded babies story isn’t true. If so, that could end the war as the world will revolt over it. 

Edited May 27 by Merkabah Star

[zazen]

@lina  Only two days after the ICJ rules Israel to stop the Rafah offensive. Horrific defiance of this sort only comes from a deeply unhealthy and traumatised society.

Pinning the blame on Bibi and his party is just an easy out from having to look in the mirror. There are IDF soldiers mocking death and destruction, IDF standing by whilst settlers sabotage aid delivery and trash it.

Israelis and the Western backers of Israel can’t just scapegoat Bibi and throw him under the bus now that world opinion has shifted heavily and they don’t want the heat. Even Cartoon Network (CNN) is critiquing Israel.

The Zionists narrative is melting faster than sugar in tea, and so is the Western moral high ground they like to make official through fancy words and documents yet do so little to act on.

Edited May 27 by zazen

[zazen]

@Merkabah Star There’s a video of a man holding up a headless body. Another of a burnt charred corpse being dragged - won’t share it here to respect guidelines and users. 

Not sure what else needs to happen for something to happen. Where does the line get drawn to whether something is now a genocide or not - regardless of the definition of genocide being met or not it’s clear that massacring should stop.

It can seem as if desensitisation and low morale has set in but the world still goes through the motions of protest as we witness new atrocities weekly. When there’s so many incidents and stories people think why bother debating the obvious - if not about what needs to happen, at least on what needs to not happen - innocent death.

Shocking how some Zionists will justify this as collateral damage for the goal of “survival” as if they couldn’t just focus on securing their border. Since when did defence become offense anyway. 

Edited May 27 by zazen

[lina]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

The Zionists narrative is melting faster than sugar in tea, and so is the Western moral high ground they like to make official through fancy words and documents yet do so little to act on.

Most people worldwide now know the truth about Zionism especially the new generation. The only ones who don't are the older ones who still follow mainstream media. That fake romantic image of 'Israel's glory & independence' which was created decades ago no longer holds. 

2 hours ago, zazen said:

Shocking how some Zionists will justify this as collateral damage for the goal of “survival” as if they couldn’t just focus on securing their border. Since when did defence become offense anyway. 

https://x.com/rafaelshimunov/status/1794902245173289248  this and the human shield argument. 

3 hours ago, Merkabah Star said:

Hope the beheaded babies story isn’t true. If so, that could end the war as the world will revolt over it. 

it's all over Instagram & X. 

Edited May 27 by lina

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, lina said:

Most people worldwide now know the truth about Zionism especially the new generation

Keep fantasize, illusionize, generalize and do fake symmetries.

Edited May 27 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

Quote

Anger, sorrow at images of decapitated child, charred bodies from Rafah attack

Politicians, journalists and doctors are taking to X to express their outrage and grief at Israel’s latest attack on a tent camp for displaced people in Rafah.

The attack ripped victims, including a child, to shreds and caused a huge blaze, burning people alive in their tents, according to witnesses and videos posted online.

Here’s some of the reaction:

Humza Yousaf, the former first minister of Scotland, wrote: “Days after the ICJ orders Israel to halt its military offensive in Rafah, the Israeli Government bombs displaced people living in tents. Innocent men, women & children dismembered and burnt alive. Bear witness to the images and ask yourself, are you on the right side of history?”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/5/27/israels-war-on-gaza-live-news-35-killed-in-rafah-tent-bombings

Israel are at an all time low. Shame on them.

[Leo Gura]

A beheaded baby is not genocide, it is a war crime or collateral damage.

Genocide is not any specific low level attrocity, it is a high level intention.

Don't forget that if you bomb the house of a Hamas leader and his family is inside with him, like the Bin Laden house, you could end up with some blown up babies. That's how a war on terrorism works. Terrorist houses are targetted imprecisely.

I'm not saying that was necessarily the case here, but just because you see a blown up baby you cannot assume it wasn't connected to Hamas. It could have been.

You have to be careful and accurate in how you frame these things because its easy to get outraged over dead babies. But all war has collateral damage and this needs to be kept in mind to maintain intellectual honesty.

Edited May 27 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

A beheaded baby is not genocide, it is a war crime or collateral damage.

 

We are not saying that it is genocide because of that. Israel whole premise was that Hamas "burned and beheaded babies" but never actually showed any footage of it. Meanwhile here we are all seeing live footage of literally the same thing Hamas allegedly died. From what I researched there was 1 baby in total that died on the attacks meanwhile in just this attacked more than 1 baby died. So it is really ironic that Israel is doing the same thing that it blasted Hamas for doing and not showing any evidence to back it up.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Genocide is not any specific low level attrocity, it is a high level intention.

 

They have already showed plenty of intention with their speeches which is why there is an ICJ and ICC case to begin with.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't forget that if you bomb the house of a Hamas leader and his family is inside with him, like the Bin Laden house, you could end up with some blown up babies. That's how a war on terrorism works. Terrorist houses are targetted imprecisely.

 

I did not see US carpet bomb the whole town where Osama has hiding. They launched a very precise military operation with soldiers that shot him personally. Israel could have done the same here. Why didnt they?

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You have to be careful and accurate in how you frame these things because its easy to get outraged over dead babies. But all war has collateral damage and this needs to be kept in mind to maintain intellectual honesty.

You should tell this to Israelis that justify 15.000 childreen killed because of imaginary babies beheaded. 

Fundamentally the ICJ openly stated that this assault should stop 2 days ago and now Israel not only does not back off, but does this. It is a legit war crime. Israel does recognize the ICJ authority (unlike the ICC), and therefore every single civilian death on Rafah from now is a legit war crime. Not "collateral damage", when the whole offensive has been deemed illegal from a body that Israel does recognize.

Not much different from what Putin is doing from a legal pov (they also told Putin Russia should stop the war in Ukraine and he kept going despite).

 

Edited May 27 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

What’s replaced broken bodies buried under rubble are burning bodies in flammable tents - tents that should be offering refuge to people who fled concrete chaos.

When discussing whether a situation constitutes the worst or best case of a ‘negative’ definition, it should still be remembered that the situation still falls within a negative definition.

While Palestinians haven’t been culled en masse which is the extreme end of the definition of genocide (mass scale death with intent behind it) - they have been on the receiving end of mass scale dispossession and destruction making their land un-livable. To be annoyingly particular and go by the definition of genocide it states destruction and not just death within its definition - destroying hospitals, fertile land with crops, denying and restricting aid seem to fit close enough to that.

Regardless of death, destruction and dispossession - even if we were to say no intent was involved in any of this: Moral outrage can still be expected - not from the intent for mass death and destruction, but the lack of intent to minimize mass scale death and destruction in pursuit of the “enemy”.  The neglect of the many in harms way when going after the few who hurt you.

While genocide meh be debated due to lack of scale / intent what can’t be is the disproportionate response for which we need a new word : neglecticide - when the pursuit of a few enemies steamrolls over countless civilians causing mass scale collateral destruction and dispossession, a neglect for human life on steroids.

Edited May 28 by zazen

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

but the lack of intent to minimize mass scale death and destruction in pursuit of the ‘enemy’.

I can agree that there is more room to do more effort to minimize casualities and our current leaders maybe somehow round the edges here, about the material destruction too, and about what I see as the loss of discipline among some amount of soldiers that take the law to their hands, with some reinforcement from the current political environment that in charge.

Can you acknowledge the 50% part of responsibility the other side has too to how all that conflict has unfolded during the decades?

Edited May 27 by Nivsch