Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Zionism IS the problem itself.

In the same way Nazism was the problem in Germany.

These isms create war.

It doesn't matter whether you call yourself such or not. What matters if whether you make excuses for, defend, and promote the actions of that ideology. This ideology is a material force in the world. This ideology fuels everything happening in Israel. It is the elephant in the room. Nothing can be solved without addressing the elephant.

Zionism makes sense when you say that Jews need a homeland and an army after the holocaust. Where it went wrong was picking a homeland that already had people on it

[zazen]

@Lila9 @Nivsch The problem isn’t that one side has more extremists than the other, it’s that’s one sides extremists (Israel) are enforcing a system of control and domination, in the form of occupation - while the other sides extremists (Hamas) emerge in reaction to that system, as a symptom.

Israeli extremism exists within a domain of systemic domination, Palestinian extremism exists within  a domain of symptomatic desperation. One side has the power asymmetry to end the cycle causing both extremisms, more than the other.

What underpins that system of occupational domination is a dark interpretation and implementation of the ideology of Zionism. Returning to a historically rooted home to coexist with natives is fine, but dispossessing them because of an ethno-centric fever dream isn’t.

A lot of the arguments stem around survival and national security. That’s something I’ve talked about regarding understanding Russias actions in reaction to Western containment that could threaten their national security at the border of Ukraine. The difference with Israel is that a besieged conclave of people with no tanks, navy, air or nuclear capability - aren’t a existential threat to a nuclear armed high tech power like Israel, backed by the collective West including a superpower like the US. It’s not the same level of national security concern the way it is for Russia.

Not only are Israels actions as an occupier completely unjustified, its reactions to those it occupies, reacting to that occupation, are also completely unjustified - because those resisting pose no existential threat. Israel was simply asleep at the wheel which caused a breach of the border on a one off occasion. Some say it was allowed to happen but that’s beside the point.

Even this notion of Israel being in a hostile neighbourhood surrounded by wolves is false. Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties, Saudi Arabia has been in silent alignment via the US and normalizing more recently (paused for now due to Israel’s psychotic behaviour), Syria poses no threat and has its own issues.

Hezbollah exists mainly as a defensive militia protecting Shias in South Lebanon, in reaction to Israels invasion in the past. The reason Israel breach Lebanese and Syrian air space / sovereignty is because of Iranian supply lines to Hezbollah, who came to exist because of Palestinian resistance in the first place.

Most, if not all Israels regional conflicts can be traced back to the refusal to resolve the ongoing Palestinian issue. Israels surrounded by countries reacting to its own system of control over a dispossessed people - it’s not innate hostility towards Jews, but circumstantial towards a state behaving dominantly in the region.

Edited Sunday at 10:26 AM by zazen

[Twentyfirst]

4 minutes ago, zazen said:

@Lila9 @Nivsch The problem isn’t that one side has more extremists than the other, it’s that’s one sides extremists (Israel) are enforcing a system of control and domination, in the form of occupation - while the other sides extremists (Hamas) emerge in reaction to that system, as a symptom.

Well said. The only real solution is for the extremists who are enforcing the conflict (Israelis ) to stop what they are doing BEFORE asking Hamas to stop being extreme

[Nivsch]

@zazen The history does not agree with this simplistic categorization. The Palestinian side commited brutal acts against Jews long before Jews began to have military advantage on them. What is refused to be accepted here is that the Palestinian side can and most likely has ideological roots to this land, just like the Jews have those, and the consistent trial to draw reality like Jews are only the ones who have Biblical aspirations, but Palestinians are just innocent reactors, is going against the commom sense and the nature of conflicts and to some sense human nature in general.

Edited Sunday at 01:14 PM by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@zazen If someone takes now only one city from your country, you will start to develop emotions towards this piece of land and won't be able to compromise with him. You will become ideological just like him to take your city back to your hands, even if he will be satisfied with this one city and won't do any occupation or any oppression on you at all.

Edited Sunday at 01:13 PM by Nivsch

[Twentyfirst]

31 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen If someone takes now only one city from your country, you will start to develop emotions towards this piece of land and won't be able to compromise with him. You will become ideological just like him to take your city back to your hands, even if he will be satisfied with this one city and won't do any occupation or any oppression on you at all.

You think that the Palestinians deserve only reservations AT BEST on their own land. With no army, currency, or say in the overall culture inside what is their holy land

Just like the Native Americans. Just small pockets of land here n there but a fraction of what is truly theirs

You never talk about Palestinians getting their own legitimate state because you are afraid "human nature" will cause them to do the same thing to Israelis that Israelis did to them. Why didn't the Jews go after the Germans if it's human nature to get revenge?  

[Husseinisdoingfine]

18 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Serious question for those who know a thing or two about military tactics, maybe Israeli people here who have done mandatory IDF service.

But are the Hamas Yassin RPG's actually effective against IDF Merkava tanks?

Because Hamas keeps publishing these GoPro footages where they hit tanks with RPG rounds. But does that actually do anything? Tanks are really heavily fortified, and Hamas rarely shows the aftermath of vehicles they hit. 

Do these RPGs actually decommission tanks? Or is it just for show?

 

Two extra vids, really shows the brutality of the situation, and of human survival.

 

Edited Sunday at 05:52 PM by Husseinisdoingfine

[Nivsch]

@zazen It is not that your view isn't valid or not presented in an interesting way, and surely has points, but its about their partiality, not about being true or false. Another example is that Israel's military advantage is not accidental, but rather an overcompensation for its initial disadvantages on the macro scale of the Middle East. What this shows is that having a military advantage over someone does not necessarily mean a more self-confident position than theirs.

Edited Sunday at 08:57 PM by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Zionism IS the problem itself.

In the same way Nazism was the problem in Germany.

These isms create war.

Most of the world did not support Nazi Germany but was disturbed by it. The only ones who did were countries with the same ideology like Italy or Spain.

Meanwhile most of the "Western developed countries" including green countries support Zionism.

How come?

How does Zionism fuel the survival agendas of Orange/Green countries?

Look how France, Germany, UK, Netherlands etc which are Orange/Green countries kiss the ass of Israel to the point where some of them said they will not arrest Bibi from the ICC warrant if he goes to those places although they are signatory to the ICC (outragous violation of international law).

 

Edited Sunday at 09:42 PM by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How come?

1) Guilt over Holocaust. Zionists are masters of milking the Holocaust.

2) Zionism is nowhere as bad as Nazism. It isn't aggressive towards other nations beyond the Middle East. Zionism is a much more subtle and sneaky ideology that slips under the radar unless you research it deeply and know all its tricks.

Edited Sunday at 10:10 PM by Leo Gura

[Twentyfirst]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Guilt over Holocaust. Zionists are masters of milking the Holocaust.

2) Zionism is nowhere as bad as Nazism. It isn't aggressive towards other nations beyond the Middle East. Zionism is a much more subtle and sneaky ideology that slips under the radar unless you research it deeply and know all its tricks.

Zionism has been causing trouble for at least 8 decades but technically longer. How long was Nazism causing havoc for? Middle easterners are about 12.5% of the world's population yet make up 50% of the world refugees 

[gettoefl]

14 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen It is not that your view isn't valid or not presented in an interesting way, and surely has points, but its about their partiality, not about being true or false. Another example is that Israel's military advantage is not accidental, but rather an overcompensation for its initial disadvantages on the macro scale of the Middle East. What this shows is that having a military advantage over someone does not necessarily mean a more self-confident position than theirs.

Agree with what you're conveying. Perhaps it's helpful to recall that one side denies the other's right to exist, period, and the other has recently come to deny the one's right to exist, as their neighbor. Both have such extreme entrenched positions that make it hard for any rationality or humanity to emerge. Things are worse than they have ever been. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

The kind of news all the "human rights organizations" won't mention and probably won't see because it's not even covered by any left wing media:

https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/chris-kenny/retaliation-has-begun-antihamas-protest-leader-tortured-and-executed-by-hamas/video/ce38c0234fe29204b14d65f384b58aa2
 

[AION]

AI getting crazy 

[hundreth]

On 3/30/2025 at 1:14 AM, Leo Gura said:

Zionism IS the problem itself.

In the same way Nazism was the problem in Germany.

These isms create war.

It doesn't matter whether you call yourself such or not. What matters if whether you make excuses for, defend, and promote the actions of that ideology. This ideology is a material force in the world. This ideology fuels everything happening in Israel. It is the elephant in the room. Nothing can be solved without addressing the elephant.

I think for most Jews, Zionism is Israel's right to exist. We are here now, we aren't leaving. We can do our best to deal with the wrongs of the past and create the best possible outcomes for the future, but within the parameters of reason.

What is Zionism to you? That's the issue with loaded terms like that. You label them bad, and then those with differing criteria and opinions get bundled in. You've now pushed them further towards the other side and increased extremism. 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

I think for most Jews, Zionism is Israel's right to exist. We are here now, we aren't leaving. We can do our best to deal with the wrongs of the past and create the best possible outcomes for the future, but within the parameters of reason.

What is Zionism to you? That's the issue with loaded terms like that. You label them bad, and then those with differing criteria and opinions get bundled in. You've now pushed them further towards the other side and increased extremism. 

Well, the way the world perceives Israel is as a country that is taking revenge for a terrorist attack by massacring women and children and bombing hospitals. So Israel's right to exist as a country is increasingly coming into question. If at some point the US decides to stop supporting Israel, well... perhaps Israel's right to exist will be shaken.

[hundreth]

38 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Well, the way the world perceives Israel is as a country that is taking revenge for a terrorist attack by massacring women and children and bombing hospitals. So Israel's right to exist as a country is increasingly coming into question. If at some point the US decides to stop supporting Israel, well... perhaps Israel's right to exist will be shaken.

You're conflating things, which is my point.

You're bundling present day Israel with the term Zionism. Now you might argue that Zionism in your definition inevitably leads to present day Israel, but large portions of Israeli society would disagree with you and have their own vision of what Zionism means and what Israel could be. 

If the US stopped supporting Israel, it wouldn't remove Israel's right to exist. They would defend themselves still to the best of their abilities. 

Edited 20 hours ago by hundreth

[Nivsch]

"Most of the public understands that this is a criminal government that sacrifices hostages and soldiers and dismantles the country."

Edited 15 hours ago by Nivsch

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

the US stopped supporting Israel, it wouldn't remove Israel's right to exist. They would defend themselves still to the best of their abilities. 

Yes, but those forces will be smaller the less legitimacy their cause is perceived to have. When the anger subsides, the Israelis themselves will realize what they've done, and their legitimacy points will have greatly diminished.

The "Holocaust" item is nullified by the Gaza action. So, without the martyr's garb that gave legitimacy to Zionism, what remains is the image of an abusive and criminal people.

[OBEler]

@AION which ai can create Hitler pictures? Most ai are too sensitive for this.