Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Lila9]

1 minute ago, Twentyfirst said:

Zionism isn't a vague word

Zionism is to build a Jewish state on Palestinian land to protect Jews from westerners

For people who demonize Zionism, it is obvious because they need to build a solid story or ideology in order to know what they hate.
But for Israelis, this is not as obvious. 

[Twentyfirst]

18 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

For people who demonize Zionism, it is obvious because they need to build a solid story or ideology in order to know what they hate.
But for Israelis, this is not as obvious. 

Zionism has zero pros for Jews, Americans, or the Middle East. It has about 100 cons

It's dangerous because it requires war and violence on innocent people and brainwashing of it's own people just to get by and will never allow for thriving 

The truth is your ancestors fucked you and now you want to blame everyone else for being hating you just because you were born a Jew.

Nope. Your parents or grandparents were shady and stole shit and now people are pissed at you for it. They knew that their actions would have consequences later on for their offspring but obviously they didn't care. 

Unless your ancestors are from Palestine and not Europe?

Edited Sunday at 01:32 AM by Twentyfirst

[Lila9]

4 minutes ago, Twentyfirst said:

Zionism has zero pros for Jews, Americans, or the Middle East. It has about 100 cons

It's dangerous because it requires war and violence on innocent people and brainwashing of it's own people just to get by and will never allow for thriving 

The truth is your ancestors fucked you and now you want to blame everyone else for being hating you just because you were born a Jew.

Nope. Your parents or grandparents were shady and stole shit and now people are pissed at you for it. They knew that their actions would have consequences later on for their offspring but obviously they didn't care. 

Unless your ancestors are from Palestine and not Europe?

And here it goes again. I will not participate in the same arguments over and over. Especially with your tone. What are gaining from spreading your hate across the politics forum with the same hostile arguments? Aren't you bored of yourself? 

[Twentyfirst]

7 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

And here it goes again. I will not participate in the same arguments over and over. Especially with your tone. What are gaining from spreading your hate across the politics forum with the same hostile arguments? Aren't you bored of yourself? 

Since when is telling the truth "hate"

Where did I lie?

[Twentyfirst]

 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, gambler said:

Such bullshit. How do you have the balls to write this crap?

She is absolutely right here. Perhaps it is you that want to preserve the simplistic image in your mind of your invented Israel.

Edited Sunday at 04:14 AM by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but in your case it's different because you are in war. The war in Israel will continue. It is impossible for the Palestinians to surrender, and killing them will undermine Israel's morale. Little by little, the reality that Israel is evil will sink in. This is the war that Hamas proposes, one that should make Israel feel disgusted with itself and that the world should feel disgusted with Israel. It is an extremely complex situation, and it seems that Israel is handling it very badly.

https://x.com/ncole_r/status/1905866776333754634?t=K_d2mgy7dEEZbaVN7HQzwA&s=09

This people is not going to surrender, they are fanatics, Israel is giving them happiness and the opportunity of going directly to paradise. 

The decision of Netanyahu's government to continue the war at this time (instead of sign an agreement, release the hostages and negotiate with moderate Arab players about alternatives to hamas in Gaza) is terrible, so in this sense I agree with you here.

Edited Sunday at 04:21 AM by Nivsch

[Raze]

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes but in your case it's different because you are in war. The war in Israel will continue. It is impossible for the Palestinians to surrender, and killing them will undermine Israel's morale. Little by little, the reality that Israel is evil will sink in. This is the war that Hamas proposes, one that should make Israel feel disgusted with itself and that the world should feel disgusted with Israel. It is an extremely complex situation, and it seems that Israel is handling it very badly.

https://x.com/ncole_r/status/1905866776333754634?t=K_d2mgy7dEEZbaVN7HQzwA&s=09

This people is not going to surrender, they are fanatics, Israel is giving them happiness and the opportunity of going directly to paradise. 

Except when it was reported Hamas was agreeing to surrender,  Israel rejected it

https://www.jns.org/netanyahu-rejects-reports-of-gaza-power-transfer-to-pa/

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

She is absolutely right here. Perhaps it is you that want to preserve the simplistic image in your mind of your invented Israel.

Actually @Lila9 is just using rationalizations to justify starving over 1.5 million people half of who are children.

If you ever wonder how Hamas can justify to themselves doing Oct 7, just look at yourself, you’re fine justifying a far worse crime in a less justifiable scenario. 

In Hamas’s case they were orphans trapped in a ghetto where they were tormented endlessly with no future of freedom, while hundreds of their people rotted in prisons, so they killed 900 civilians on oct 7 (actually we don’t even know because israel used Hannibal and won’t investigate it), and for this you declare them sadistic psychopathic irredeemable monsters.

whereas israel could end the war at any time and get the hostages back, instead it killed over tens of thousands of women and children and is continuing to attempt genocide by literally blocking food to the entire population. Or is it not genocide to try and induce starvation of an entire population.

And you think the idf is just being a moral army making hard decisions because of trauma?

 

You were cheering the war on when it started, even after countless hostages were killed. Morally you’re barely a step above the kahanists. 

Edited Sunday at 04:30 AM by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze No. An entity who rapes before it kills and do psychological continuous turture to helpless hostages isn't just "cornered" or in a "ghetto". This nerative is very weak.

Edited Sunday at 04:38 AM by Nivsch

[Raze]

2 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

 

Please quit posting this guy, it isn’t persuading anyone and I doubt anyone even watches these links. 

[Raze]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze No. An entity who rape before it kills, and do a psychological continuous turture to hostages isn't just "cornered" or in a "ghetto". This nerative is very weak.

Well let’s see. We now have detailed reports of Israel torturing prisoners and raping Palestinians.

http://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell
 

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/sessions-regular/session58/a-hrc-58-crp-6.pdf

So by your own examples Israeli soldiers are at best on the same moral plane as Hamas.

This is being done by Israelis who grew up with self determination in a country with high living standards.

So why is it so shocking to think Hamas could behave in similar things

When you consider : 

1948 - Israel tried to poison Palestinian Arab wells in Gaza, killing many innocent civilians

 1948 - Israel violently expelled ~200,000 Palestinians from their homes, pushing them to the Gaza Strip (in total, some 750,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes by Israel during the war).

1950 - Israel expel the last remaining 2,600 Palestinians in Majdal. Israeli forces loaded them onto trucks, sending them off to Gaza. Whoever refused to leave was coerced through intimidation and violence.
 

1953 - The Israeli military attacked the al-Bureij Camp in Gaza, killing 50 civilians, seeking to dismantle the refugee camp altogether to disperse in residents. Another Egyptian-UNRWA plan, supported by Israel, was to expel some 60,000 Palestinians from Gaza to Sinai, where land & Nile River water for irrigation was apparently going to be provided. But the project failed when Palestinians demonstrated en masse on 1 March 1955.
 

1949-1956 - Tens of thousands of Palestinian refugees (many from Gaza) tried to return home. They were overwhelmingly unarmed. The Israeli army adopted a shoot to kill policy, massacring ~2,700-5,000 during this period.

 

1956-1957 - Israel invaded Gaza, occupying it for 4 months. On 3 Nov 1956, Israeli forces entered Khan Yunis, rounding up all men 15+, lined them against a wall, & executed them. They did the same thing in Rafah. They massacred hundreds of Gazan Palestinians in cold blood.

1967 - Israel re-invaded the Gaza Strip in a war of choice  imposing a belligerent military occupation there that has lasted to the present day. 1967 - On 18–19 June 1967, the Israeli cabinet adopted this decision: "...[the Gaza Strip] would be annexed to Israel once the number of refugees there was significantly reduced by transfer to other locations of countries."
 

1967 - Israel pushed out some ~40,000 Palestinians from Gaza, because they were of the incorrect religion/ethnicity.

 

1968-1970 - Israel pushed out tens of thousands of Palestinians from the Gaza Strip, then forcibly expelled another 38,000 Palestinian refugees in Gaza in 1971 and tried to compel the rest to give up their refugee status or leave the refugee camps throughout the 1970s and 1980s.

 

1967-1987 - Israel kills 32 Palestinians on average every year for 20 years (in Gaza & the West Bank); Israel denies Palestinians politica rights. Israel imprisons Palestinians like Fathi Ghaben for painting paintings with black, red, green and white. Israel regularly arrests, detains, tortures and deports Palestinians for speech critical of Israel's brutal military occupation.
 

1987 - From December 1987 - December 1988, Israeli forces slaughtered 142 Palestinians in Gaza, while Palestinian forces killed 0 Israelis in Gaza.

1987 - 1993 - Israel killed about 1,200 Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. 1990 - Israel threatens the livelihoods of 40% of the population of Gaza, who was at the time working in Israel or in Israeli settlements in Gaza, by requiring them to apply for a permit that was previously granted automatically.

1994 - 1996 - Israel imposes suffocating lockdowns on Gaza, leading to 70% unemployment rate in Gaza during periods of total closure. see Gordon, Israel’s Occupation, 73. 2000 - 2005 - Israel slaughtered ~3,000 Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, imposing suffocating lockdowns on Gaza, leading the World Food Programme to spin up an emergency food operation in Gaza to save hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza from going hungry.
 

2006 - 7 - Israel tightens it's illegal & inhumane siege on Gaza, whose goal was to "dispel the claims regarding Israel's responsibility for the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip" & to “freeze the peace process" (words of Dov Weisglass, Advisor to the then Prime Minister Ariel Sharon). 2007 - present. Israel imposes the longest lasting siege in modern history on Gaza, putting 2M Gazans "on diet," controlling their caloric intake, leading to widespread devastation: 40% of Gaza's population live in poverty, most of them in extreme poverty, more than 80% of households dependent on food aid. Dozens if not hundreds but probably thousands die in Gaza every from inability to receive proper medical and Israel's refusal to allow Gazans to seek care outside of Gaza, owing to the punishing siege, including Fatimah al-Masri, who was murdered by Israel in 2022 after Israel refused to allow her to exit Gaza for medical treatment source

 

2008-9 - Israel waged a war on Gaza. Israel killed 1,400 Gazans (who killed 3 Israeli civilians). The Goldstone Report found no justifiable military objective was identified in 90% of Israel's deadly attacks on Palestinian civilians & that Israel's goal was “punish, humiliate & terrorize civilians.”

 

2012 - Israel killed 171 Gazans (who killed 4 Israeli civilians); 60% of Gazan victims were civilians; the war started when Israel assassinated Ahmed Jabari, who was about to sign a permanent ceasefire with Israel. Israel preferred war to strengthen it’s “deterrence capacity.”

2014 - Israel killed >1,500 Gazan civilians (who killed 6 Israeli civilians). Israel launched 6,000 airstrikes on Gaza, mostly on residential buildings. In 40% of investigated cases, the UN found no explanation for bombing civilians, concluding Israel likely committed war crimes

 

2018-9 - Israel killed 223 Palestinians & Israeli snipers left 6,106 Palestinians with life-changing wounds (0 Israeli casualties) after 10s of thousands of unarmed overwhelmingly peaceful Gazans marched to the fence, demanding the right of return and protesting against the siege. No Israeli experienced any major harm at all.

2021: Israel killed 261 Gazans (who killed 14 Israelis); 113,000 Palestinians were internally displaced; Airwars report concluded: in 70% of the deadly airstrikes on civilians, no militants or military targets were found & Israel indiscriminately targeted dense civilian areas.

 

, how exactly can this be expected to not lead to violent behavior? A better question is why you are more upset by the reaction from this as opposed to this violence by itself.

BTW, I challenge you to name one person raped on Oct 7.

Edited Sunday at 04:46 AM by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze Any extreme group who turture somebody else is wrong and that is it. No further explanation needed for it.

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Lila9 said:

I hope that the humanitarian crisis in Gaza will end soon. I truly mean it.

I gain nothing from starved children or innocents, believe me. This is a tragedy and I hope that this was not the case. 

Israel does what it believes is effective in pressuring Hamas to release the hostages. This is part of its war strategy. Whether this is moral or not, or whether there are alternative solutions, is arguable. Do I personally promote it? No.

But am I expert in war strategies to tell what should be done or not? No.

Here we see you contradicting yourself.

On one hand you don’t want to admit to yourself you are ok with starving children, on the other you say it’s working and thus you aren’t interested in speaking against it.
 

Ergo, you support starving children.

Its like if I said “I don’t support suicide bombings, I don’t want to see it happen, but it’s effective and I’m not interested in telling the people doing it to stop because immortality is justified sometimes”.

Obviously you would tell me that’s nonsense and I’m justifying it by saying it works, can be justified, and I wouldn’t tell what should be done.

Also, your analysis is completely wrong. Hamas already agreed to release all hostages with the ceasefire, Israel rejected the ceasefire they themselves agreed too and refused to even negotiate phase 2. Hamas even expressed interest in Egypt’s plan which required them disarming and leaving power to the PA in exchange for Gaza being rebuilt, but Israel publicly rejected it.

The “hudna“ is not a Muslim strategy of a fake ceasefire, it is just a ceasefire. For most of the history of the Gaza conflict Hamas has abided by its ceasefire agreements whereas Israel broke them. Oct 7 was a rare exception.

Even in the last ceasefire Hamas abided by it while Israel broke it. Even Israeli outlets reported this.

But that doesn’t matter, even if you’re right about the strategy, the point is you’re hiding your true beliefs. You support starving children, own it. 
 

If immortality is justified in fighting immortality, you now understand every suicide bomber or terrorist who attacked Israel to fight against their illegal cruel occupation. You’ve actually gone further in what you’re justifying. They kill dozens to hundreds of civilians to try and free millions of people, you support killing tens of thousands to possibly hundreds of thousands to try and free 20-30 people.

Edited Sunday at 05:12 AM by Raze

[Leo Gura]

Zionism IS the problem itself.

In the same way Nazism was the problem in Germany.

These isms create war.

It doesn't matter whether you call yourself such or not. What matters if whether you make excuses for, defend, and promote the actions of that ideology. This ideology is a material force in the world. This ideology fuels everything happening in Israel. It is the elephant in the room. Nothing can be solved without addressing the elephant.

Edited Sunday at 05:19 AM by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Zionism IS the problem itself.

In the same way Nazism was the problem in Germany.

These isms create war.

It doesn't matter whether you call yourself such or not. What matters if whether you make excuses for, defend, and promote the actions of that ideology. This ideology is a material force in the world. This ideology fuels everything happening in Israel. It is the elephant in the room. Nothing can be solved without addressing the elephant.

The right-wing sector of the Palestinians, on the second side of the equation, also has an ideology with independent reasons to exist (not dependent on the actions and policies of the second side), except that these pre-existing ideologies do fuel and worsen each other.

[Breakingthewall]

The war Hamas has launched will result in the complete delegitimization of Zionism worldwide. This is a very significant outcome. Although the current American president is a unconditional supporter of Israel, public opinion rules, and a president who isn't will be elected. Hamas is running a long-distance race. Israel has killed 50,000, which is nothing to them. For every death, there are 10 new fanatics, or 100, and hatred of Israel throughout the Muslim world is reaching a critical point. Hamas has won this battle without a doubt, and I would say it has initiated Israel's downfall.

The stupid Zionists who take their children to cheer the bombing of civilians don't know what they're doing. The Jews, the most moral and victimized people in the world, have been portrayed as trash, and the whole world has seen it. Bad business.

Edited Sunday at 09:06 AM by Breakingthewall

[Twentyfirst]

5 hours ago, Raze said:

Please quit posting this guy, it isn’t persuading anyone and I doubt anyone even watches these links. 

I'm not trying to persuade anyone. She was calling me hateful and there is no way to respond to that other than videos that address exactly that accusation 

[Twentyfirst]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

The right-wing sector of the Palestinians, on the second side of the equation, also has an ideology with independent reasons to exist (not dependent on the actions and policies of the second side), except that these pre-existing ideologies do fuel and worsen each other.

What are the left wing and right wing of Palestine?

[Raze]

What I think will happen is that since the extreme right population has a higher birthrate then the secular population israel will become more and more extreme as they take over making it lose even more international support. Combined with losing international support deteriorating its economy and continued attacks from Palestinians revolting from the occupation this will cause a brain drain of seculars who comprise the wealthy more technically savvy clash which will create a spiral of more violence as they provide the backbone to the economy and the militaries competence.

As it loses international support it will be forced to rely on its nuclear weapons as a deterrent threat when it can’t rely on a potential US intervention. This will cause surrounding middle eastern states to create their own nukes and their enemies to create nukes creating proliferation of nukes in the Middle East. Unlike Africa and Latin America, requests to turn the Middle East into a nuclear weapon free zone were blocked by the US to avoid having to inspect Israel for nuclear weapons.

But the problem is due to other economic issues and climate change pressures more middle eastern dictatorships will have Islamist revolutions and be taken over by a government much more hostile to Israel, possibly with a belief in Armageddon like ISIS.

At the same time the right in Israel has a growing population that believes in messianic prophecy’s about israel taking its ancient land and having a climactic battle to bring back the messiah.

So it will eventually escalate into full scale conflict leading to them using the Samson option.