Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Merkabah Star]

 

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

No no - I mean by Israel being nearly knocked out of existence time and time again..  They didn't create this monster.   The jews have been almost knocked out of existence so many, many times.  So now they are doing it to Hamas and now you think it's wrong. 

The irony is that the group of the people that probably treated Jews historically the best (Arab Muslims), are the ones getting the worse treatment by Jews.

They took you as refugees and historically did not put you in ghettos or mass murder you like European Christnians did.

Yet, European christians are the "good guys" for Jews and Arab Muslims are the enemy.

Contemplate that Jews lived next to Arabs in the land we call Palestine for centuries with far far less problems than in Europe. The hatred against Jews came with the creation of Israel which Arabs saw as a illegitimate theft of land cause by the great powers of the time (UK, USSR, USA).

If Jews started oppressing Germans, that I would understand.

But with Palestinians, it seems very unfair.

What do you think?

Edited May 18 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

A country like Pakistan can for example in a heartbeat expel 100 000's Afghan refugees and nobody in the world will complain. 

How many Afghanis did they kill? Afghanistan is already an established state, they have somewhere to go. Where are Gazans supposed to go? Gaza is not Israel, so why should they be expelled? Pakistan is removing people from its own territory. Israel is not removing people from its own territory. It is going on someone's else territory and removing the people living there, in land that is not theirs.

Stupid comparison. What Pakistan did would be like Germany decided one day to kick out all the Syrian refugees living in Germany. What Israel is doing would be like Russia going into Moldova, and kicking out all the Moldovans from the country.

It is not the same.

If Pakistan went to Afghanistan and started kicking out people living there then it would be a totally different situation.

 

Edited May 18 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

50 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Stupid comparison. What Pakistan did would be like Germany decided one day to kick out all the Syrian refugees living in Germany. What Israel is doing would be like Russia going into Moldova, and kicking out all the Moldovans from the country.

The point still stands, I wrote: Extreme rightwing pipe dreams don't translate into realities in democracies like Israel.  

It's not truthful to be so set against Israel, that you would crawl into Ben Gvirs head while he is sleeping, fish out his extremist wet dream and stick that on the reality of Israel and Palestinian oppression. 

Palestinian "oppression" is in reaction to their terror, footshooting and rejection of peace offers. This is their half of the vicious cycle.

Again: Moshe Dayan's policy as soon as he took over the West Bank from the Jordanians was for maximum freedom and economic flourishing, this was the starting point of the vicious cycle when the more broader Arab-Israeli conflict gradually merged further into the more narrow Israeli-Palestinian conflict. 

Palestinians are native to the land just like Jews but don't act as if they had a state where they had the power and that the Jews were somehow at their mercy and they benevolently sheltered them. No, identity-wise the Arabs were simply Arabs even identifying as Syrians who took on the Palestinian identity only in opposition to modern Zionism which developed their own communities in the land independently, buying land in legal ways. This was the very start of Arab Israeli tensions in the beginning of the 20th century, maybe even the late 19th century.

Edited May 18 by Vrubel

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The irony is that the group of the people that probably treated Jews historically the best (Arab Muslims), are the ones getting the worse treatment by Jews.

They took you as refugees and historically did not put you in ghettos or mass murder you like European Christnians did.

Yet, European christians are the "good guys" for Jews and Arab Muslims are the enemy.

Contemplate that Jews lived next to Arabs in the land we call Palestine for centuries with far far less problems than in Europe. The hatred against Jews came with the creation of Israel which Arabs saw as a illegitimate theft of land cause by the great powers of the time (UK, USSR, USA).

If Jews started oppressing Germans, that I would understand.

But with Palestinians, it seems very unfair.

What do you think?

the Jews can't start oppressing European christians now - because its a different generation and different people than the Nazis.  The Egyptian pharaoh is long gone.  The times of splitting the red sea are long gone.  Right now - they were attacked by the guys next door - and now that they are coming down on the guys next door without mercy you guys want to point the finger at the Jews.  Why should they hold any mercy in their heart?  Yeah - they should be the better people...after all they are the chosen people..right?  But remember- they might just be playing to the level of the field.  If it were that easy to be the better people they would - but they know that in doing that it would probably mean their demise just from the level of the field at large.   In other words - you have to kneel when talking to a midget.

Edited May 18 by Inliytened1

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The point still stands, I wrote: Extreme rightwing pipe dreams don't translate into realities in democracies like Israel.  

Karmadhis point was to provide context to different situations. The rightwing pipe dream is being translated into reality as we speak by what the states actions are in Gaza - to the point Israel has been summoned to the world court, condemned globally, and criticised and threatened with arms withdrawals even from its own allies. 

Israel can't just carry out what it wants as it wishes because it depends heavily on the support of the West. This is why no plan for the day after has been set and isn't by Bibi - obscurity is there because the real intention can't be spoken, but the smokescreen of 'bring back the hostages' keeps being fed to the people to help them justify what their state is doing in Gaza.

Israel couldn't defend itself against Iranian missiles that Iran can produce as fast and as cheaply as Cuba can make cigars. Multiple countries stepped in to help intercept them. This is why Israel can't just do as it pleases and needs to balance its far right motivations with global consensus and what their allies will put up with. Even then, Israel defies international law and their allies warnings - but they still need to manage their own domestic affairs and the impact of isolationism and economic hardship from boycotts, trade ties being cut etc.

Democracy and far right aren't mutually exclusive.  Its like me saying slavery isn’t possible under a democracy - but it happened in recent history. The banner of democracy associates itself with the will of the people - demos. But what if the will of the people is moving to the right and so the leaders simply represent the electorate.

When Israeli's say that the average Israeli is moderate they may be speaking from the more liberal parts or the capital where they are surrounded by the more moderate minded - but the demographic which is the fasting growing are the settler demographic who hold much more far right views and so politics will lean to cater to them as Bibi has done.

Demographics is destiny - and the current trend is that the more right wing viewpoints are spawning the most yearly births which is pulling the countries political centre of gravity right and will continue to into the future.

Edited May 18 by zazen

[zazen]

52 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Right now - they were attacked by the guys next door - and now that they are coming down on the guys next door without mercy you guys want to point the finger at the Jews.  Why should they hold any mercy in their heart? 

You may not have to show mercy to the perpetrators but don't go after the many out of frustration for not being able to successfully get at the few who hurt you. Thinking this level of collateral damage and destruction is justified isn't such a moderate take by a moderator lol.

Because Jewish history is one of being expelled from place to place one can understand why Jews don't trust anyone to have their interest at heart but it still doesn't justify doing it to people who never did it to you in the first place. Israel needs to learn to trust at leas its own allies.

The wider context which gets missed in all this as people get lost in discussion of civilian:combatant kill ratios etc is the underlying cause being occupation of land. If we allow ancient claims to land to justify present injustice, we're opening a pandoras box to endless war which no country would be safe from because history and 'countries' are shifting sands.

If ancient claims are part of Zionist logic that would justify Americans and Australians being kicked out or giving land back to the indigenous. 

[Nivsch]

I will try to bring ones a day a post from the center-left sector activists or politicians to show a wider and more real picture of our country voices and character.

Edited May 18 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Vrubel said:

The point still stands, I wrote: Extreme rightwing pipe dreams don't translate into realities in democracies like Israel.  

Right wing dreams of reconstituting a Biblical Israel is what created Hamas and the situation we see today.

Fundamentally, the reason Israel has dominated Palestinians for decades in such a cruel way, is because they believe the Bible gives them rights to that land. And so ironically the Bible is being used to justify the domination of one group of people by another, similar to how Catholics used the Bible to dominate brown peoples of the Americas.

The problem with the Zionist dream is that it is based on a narrow ethnic and religious identity, which gives license in the minds of many Israelis to get their way at the expense of other people. And this certainly manifests up and down Israeli government policy, from Netanyahu down to the individual IDF soldiers, and every level in between.

Edited May 18 by Leo Gura

[Vrubel]

3 hours ago, zazen said:

The rightwing pipe dream is being translated into reality as we speak by what the states actions are in Gaza - to the point Israel has been summoned to the world court, condemned globally, and criticised and threatened with arms withdrawals even from its own allies. 

No it isn't. They committed a horrendous attack and now it's war. No surprise here. How convenient to relieve Hamas of all responsibility. Hamas is the biggest evil here and it needs to be removed from power. It's absolutely their fault for attacking and throwing their own people under the bus at a time when this government is in power. More left or centrist governments would have been more mild but nonetheless, people would shout genocide over any Israeli action no matter how big or small. That's part of the blind smear campaign. Don't be blind to the massive hypocrisy and blatant Hamas support from the beastly corrupt ruling South Africa party that turned their country into a wildly unsafe society. I have seen how gaslighty and ugly people behave toward Israelis. People like Israelis are the most genuine and decent people any society can wish for. Maybe that's why some people have an anti-Israel shadow. 

Israelis absolutely have a legitimate perspective that people willfully ignore as to maintain their illusion of virtue signaling-righteousness and edgy intelligence. The only reason people have milded down here is because of me and @Nivsch making powerful points. Still people lash out from time to time. 
 

 

3 hours ago, zazen said:

Democracy and far right aren't mutually exclusive. The banner of democracy associates itself with the will of the people - demos. But what if the will of the people is moving to the right and so the leaders simply represent the electorate.

When Israeli's say that the average Israeli is moderate they may be speaking from the more liberal parts or the capital where they are surrounded by the more moderate minded - but the demographic which is the fasting growing are the settler demographic who hold much more far right views and so politics will lean to cater to them as Bibi has done.

Demographics is destiny - and the current trend is that the more right wing viewpoints are spawning the most yearly births which is pulling the countries political centre of gravity right and will continue to into the future.

Israel is integrating into the region by becoming more careful and conservative. I am not going to be whiny about that after 7/10. Notice your constant mindless extrapolating and your mushy way of filling in unknown factors. The survival conditions are tough here and require more conservative values to stick it out. Hippie liberal Israelis got massacred on 7/10 while (moderate) settlers carry weapons, work hard, do military service and have a lots of children. These are not my values but the values of the Middle East because people here don't fuck around and aren't forgiving to mistakes.
Having said that, people here are incredible in the way they treat each other and help each other out. It's like family. I am not saying this as a sentimental glorification but that’s what the dynamic of unprecedented openness, social freedom, the support and being there for each other reminds me most of.  

 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Right wing dreams of reconstituting a Biblical Israel is what created Hamas and the situation we see today.

Fundamentally, the reasons Israel has dominated Palestinians for decades in such a cruel way, is because they believe the Bible gives them rights to this land. And so ironically the Bible is being used to justify the domination of one group of people by another, similar to how Catholics used the Bible to dominate brown peoples of South America.

No Hamas was created because its terrorist predecessor, the PLO signed agreements with Israel and became a legitimate party. Hamas was there to fill in the niche of extremism again. Terrorism was always there among the Arab society. Furthermore, in the whole region even where there are no Jews involved! so what does that tell you? 


 

Edited May 18 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura Leo but what I just remembered now is that hamas has always increased the terror just after it smelled a breakthrough in the negotations between Israelis and Palestinians. A very famous example is Oslo agreement in 1993 when after it has been signed, a series of terrible suicide terror attacks has started as an attempt to fail it.

Paradoxically, the most extreme parts of the Palestinians aren't interested in any of the oppression issues. Because if they were, they wouldn't try to fail the negotiations. 

The "right-wing" of the Palestinians try similarily to the right wing of Israel to fail any negotiation and a chance to achieve a deal. So according to this, hamas is this right wing of the Palestinian side, who don't want anything other the total annihilation of Israel, and the occupation of the West Bank as it sees in 1967 doesn't matter to him at all, but 1948 is.

Edited May 19 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

The problem with the Zionist dream is that it is based on a narrow ethnic and religious identity, which gives license in the minds of many Israelis to get their way at the expense of other people. And this certainly manifests up and down Israeli government policy, from Netanyahu down to the individual IDF soldiers, and every level in between.

Only Palestinians are excluded because they do, celebrate and are proud of horrendous animalistic terrorism. So people don't feel like integrating with them but rather something to defend against. Israel is an extreme melting pot. Also non-Jews like many  Arabs, Bedouins, Druze and Russians and Ukrainians also get fully integrated.

It's absolutely crucial that a society has its nose in the same direction.

In principle, I have no problem with the one-state idea solution. Practically though It's just so obviously impossible with Palestinians. So two states is the next best thing. 
 

Edited May 18 by Vrubel

[Merkabah Star]

An exceptional interview. 

Edited May 18 by Merkabah Star

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Only Palestinians are excluded because they do, celebrate and are proud of horrendous animalistic terrorism

Israelis also celebrate murder of childreen and all that sick stuff. It goes both ways.

For God's sake why do you always ignore that?

I have seen countless footage with my own eyes of Israelis being happy that innocent people on the other side are dying, and even before the October attacks.

Both sides hate each other to death, Israel is not above this.

The difference is that those Israelis that celebrate have not had a family member killed meanwhile Palestinians have.

Since the ratio of dead is usually 50 to 1.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/watch-far-right-israelis-celebrate-gaza-kids-deaths/

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/25/world/middleeast/ali-dawabsheh-arson-death-israel-wedding-video.html

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20230510-israeli-settlers-celebrate-airstrikes-that-killed-children-in-gaza/

Here you have proof, not just empty words from me.

I cannot imagine how a first world developed rich country can have such cruel people.

 

Edited May 18 by Karmadhi

[Merkabah Star]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Israelis also celebrate murder of childreen and all that sick stuff. It goes both ways.

For God's sake why do you always ignore that?

It’s just a few bad apples, so they say. But that same logic used against Palestinians doesn’t apply.

 

Edited May 19 by Merkabah Star

[Vrubel]

4 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Israelis also celebrate murder of childreen and all that sick stuff. It goes both ways.

For God's sake why do you always ignore that?

I can confidently put a hard NO on that. I have seen your sources. I get it. Still not the same by a looooong shot. The extremist wedding  (your most depraved example) with the shameful chanting was an enormous scandal in Israel some years back and people were arrested. However, how bad that was it's not the same as cheering for actual abused young women being paraded. Those who pamper the Palestinians are in denial about that or play games to victimize them and blame it on Israel because apparently, that constitutes thorough intelligence.

Yes, Israel as a national identity needs to exclude Palestinians because it's not a frivolous thing to flood your country with stage-red people who have all different agendas and are not keen on compromising or dropping their corruption. Just look at Lebanon which used to be a high-functioning stage blue and orange-Christian country that got arm-wrestled and outpopulated by Arabs. The Lebanese Shia for example are more interested in doing the bidding of Iran rather than in looking after their country's best interest as a whole. They will have no qualms about destroying their own country and society if Iran chooses to use them to go to war. 

The reason we have this war is because Hamas sees their women as nothing and their children as replaceable. Despite everything it still holds true that Israel, even the right-wing government cares WAY more for the civilians of Gaza than Hamas. And yet for you, Israel and Hamas are the same, how laughable and perverse. 




 

Edited May 19 by Vrubel

[Nivsch]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/15/middleeast/israel-gaza-yoav-gallant-intl-latam

Edited May 19 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

 

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[zazen]

18 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Right now - they were attacked by the guys next door - and now that they are coming down on the guys next door without mercy you guys want to point the finger at the Jews.  Why should they hold any mercy in their heart? 

 

6 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Those who pamper the Palestinians are in denial about that or play games to victimize them and blame it on Israel because apparently, that constitutes thorough intelligence.

No one has to victimise Palestinians when they can clearly see with their own eyes what is the case.

Every society is capable of terrorism, its not some unique characteristic of Arabs except by the circumstances and conditions that foster it more and more and yes to a extent even religion is used for these. But to act as if they live to be terrorists and they have no actual grievances which are capitalised on (occupation, no right of return etc) is denying the cause of a lot of problems still existing today.