Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

It’s like saying western governments are run by Christianity and the age of enlightenment 

There is a lot of influence yes, but they have a lot of variance, evolution, etc.

1) Plenty of US government & policy is influenced by Christianity. That's important not to forget.

2) Middle East countries are not secular. They are much more theocratic. There is no seperation of church and state. Their whole legal system is based on Sharia. Sharia judges and courts. Totally different from the Western legal system.

The rulers and elites may skirt Sharia, but not the average masses.

Edited September 22 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The alternative is for Israel to split to Liberal Israel vs Judea and there is a movement inside Israel that supports that.

that’s a wild idea

seems impossible anyway

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Worsen them yes, but they aren't the root cause.

Based on what?

Even former prime minister Ehud Barak admitted if he was Palestinian he’d probably be a terrorist 

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The alternative is for Israel to split to Liberal Israel vs Judea and there is a movement inside Israel that supports that.

how does that solve the Palestine issue

 

[royce]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Middle East governments are westernizing and secularizing too. But that process is far from complete

In the Middle East, the kings and presidents handpick their governments, and many of these rulers were put in place by the Americans. How is it possible that the U.S. installs leaders who act against the interests , We're living in a modern-day dark age here, where we have no real power to choose anything. I'm not saying whether this is right or wrong—I'm just describing the reality of the situation.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 22 by royce

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

that’s a wild idea

seems impossible anyway

The idea is to not completely geographically split because many sectors live at the same cities or too nearby ones, but to do like 80% seperation and two law systems. Otherwise a civil war can eventually happen.

Edited September 22 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, royce said:

In the Middle East, the kings and presidents handpick their governments, and many of these rulers were put in place by the Americans. How is it possible that the U.S. installs leaders who act against the interests ,

Yes, of course. That's part of how Westernization happens. Secular leaders are much better for global business. This is capitalism at work. And don't pretend like capitalism doesn't benefit all these nations. Saudi Arabia is swimming in cash thanks to Western capitalism. Saudi Arabia would be Yemen without Western capitalism.

Edited September 22 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

25 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Left and center parties were for 2states before oct7.

Even Bennet said in one interview that his party is the only one who is against palestinian state.

Like the dominant opinion was for 2states.

https://archive.is/EKrRu

https://www.timesofisrael.com/joining-forces-with-gantz-yaalon-rules-out-support-for-two-state-solution/

 

[Nivsch]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

https://archive.is/EKrRu

https://www.timesofisrael.com/joining-forces-with-gantz-yaalon-rules-out-support-for-two-state-solution/

 

Ya'alon is more right wing but very Liberal in internal issues.

Gantz is for Palestinian state.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The idea is to not completely geographically split because many sectors live at the same cities or too nearby ones, but to do like 80% seperation and two law systems. Otherwise a civil war can eventually happen.

And which would have the army

and which part would get the US support?

mossad would work for which one

the tech companies would stay in the more liberal side?

seems very dreamlish utopian

but i have thought maybe the US should do that, split the country one side liberal one side conservative, now pack your bags and move to your side boi

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Saudi Arabia would be Yemen without Western capitalism.

The west and Saudi Arabia put Yemen through a manufactured famine and dropped bombs on them for years, their issues are just a lack of western capitalism 

[Nivsch]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

Based on what?

Stage Red life meaning and sense of purpose is to ever fighting and expanding. This is not done out of frustration or oppression but out of positively feeling life purpose.

Edited September 22 by Nivsch

[royce]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, of course. That's part of how Westernization happens. Secular leaders are much better for global business. This is capitalism at work. And don't pretend like capitalism doesn't benefit all these nations. Saudi Arabia is swimming in cash thanks to Western capitalism.

i don't pretend ))) 

[Raze]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

Stage Red life meaning and sense of purpose is to even fighting and expanding. This is not done out of frustration or oppression but out of positively feeling life purpose.

There sense of purpose is survival because they are in a situation where they fight to survive.

The only one expanding is Israel, which announced the biggest West Bank land grab in a long time and is discussing settlements in Gaza.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

The west and Saudi Arabia put Yemen through a manufactured famine and dropped bombs on them for years, their issues are just a lack of western capitalism 

In the Middle East, without a strong and Western-like government you end up with endless petty tribal conflict and extreme religious fundamentalism which leads to extreme poverty and backwardness like in Yumen, Sudan, or Afghanistan.

The West isn't just a different culture, it is a more effective, more developed, more prosperous way if running people. Most people in the Middle East want the material benefits that the West affords.

Most people are not Bin Laden, who was happy living with 4 wives and 11 children in a cave, feeding them bread and water.

Edited September 22 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

There sense of purpose is survival because they are in a situation where they fight to survive.

The only one expanding is Israel, which announced the biggest West Bank land grab in a long time and is discussing settlements in Gaza.

The far right wing indeed wants to ever expand.

But if the far right wing wants that just because of Ideology, then the same is true to the Right wing of Palestinians.

Edited September 22 by Nivsch

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

In the Middle East, without a strong and Western-like government you end up with endless petty tribal conflict and extreme religious fundamentalism which leads to extreme poverty and backwardness like in Yumen, Sudan, or Afghanistan.

Those countries collapsed because of massive violent foreign intervention.

The west massively screwed over the Middle East by importing nationalism and arbitrary states then flooding them with arms and military campaigns their development wasn’t ready for to exploit them for resources.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Those countries collapsed because of massive violent foreign intervention.

I am not going to keep arguing against this leftist talking point. The Middle East's lack of development is not the result of the West, it is rooted in much deeper internal problems.

[PurpleTree]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

Those countries collapsed because of massive violent foreign intervention.

The west massively screwed over the Middle East by importing nationalism and arbitrary states then flooding them with arms and military campaigns their development wasn’t ready for to exploit them for resources.

always blaming the west but never blaming islam and tribal culture for silliness 

nice

Edited September 22 by PurpleTree

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not going to keep arguing against this leftist talking point. The Middle East's lack of development is not the result of the West, it is rooted in much deeper internal problems.

Because you’re conflating longer periods of time with recent history. Yes the Middle East had less technological development than the west after the Islamic golden age and it wasn’t primarily because of western intervention, no one is arguing that.

But in *recent* history there is a clear line of foreign intervention destabilizing the region and hurting its development.

We have internal documents from 1958 where Eisenhower was concerned with a campaign of hatred against the west in the Middle East, and one of the largest western international bodies, National Security Council, looked into it and concluded the campaign was based on public perception the US was supporting repression and blocking development to exploit resources, and they also concluded this was correct but that it was necessary.

And that was before the US replaced a secular leaning leader in Iran for oil which later inspired a Islamist revolt, before the US supported Wahhabism spreading from Saudi Arabia which inspired Islamist movements, before supporting Saddam Hussein when he committed genocide against Kurds and invaded Iran and then later toppled him creating a massive power vacuum, before Russia invaded Afghanistan and the US armed islamists, before the US, Russia, and Iran intervened in civil wars in Yemen, Sudan, and Syria making the conflicts 10x more violent, before the US sanctioned middle eastern countries crushing their economies etc. 

Muslim countries that had less foreign intervention generally are doing better, even though they often lack resources of middle eastern countries.

Edited September 22 by Raze

[royce]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not going to keep arguing against this leftist talking point. The Middle East's lack of development is not the result of the West, it is rooted in much deeper internal problems.

The West has had a major role in fueling jihadist Islam. When you kill a million Iraqis, fight a 17-year war in Afghanistan, support dictators, and push the agendas of the Zionist regime in the region, it inevitably contributes to the problem. I'm not saying it's the only factor, but it's certainly not a small one.

 

Like you said not all Muslims want to live in caves and fight the world's most powerful country like Bin Laden did, but you can create many more Bin Ladens if you treat people poorly. It's an ego thing, and they're witnessing what’s written in the Quran unfolding right in front of them.

 

Whats Happening In Gaza Radicalized Students In New york Imagine Whats Happening In The Middle east 

Edited September 22 by royce