Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

67 aren't secure borders physically, let alone that it is unrealistic to evacuate the settlements at this point. The western third part of WB have to stay under Israel control.

Israelis kicked out illegally 700.000 Palestinians, so it is perfectly realistic to kick out those Israelis that do not belong there (In West Bank)  and are in principle violators of international law (aka criminals). Nobody is killing them. If you build a house in an area that you cannot built, it is governmental right to demolish it and not reimburse you. Go build in Central Park and see what happens to you for example. You can apply the same standard here, if you want to actually respect the law as the democracy you claim to be.

And if you really feel so bad for them, Israel can reimburse them or build housing for them.

Regarding "not secure borders physically", perhaps you can elaborate on that because I am not clear.

 

Edited July 15 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi  There was a civil war. There was no one side who decided to kick them all out this is a cartoonish oversimplification.

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

It is clearly defined as ethnic cleansing.

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

You are talking about last 100 years, I am talking stuff from 1000 years ago. Since for Israelis, history from 2000 years ago is relevant, I am using that time frame. Obviously in the last 100 years Ukraine and Russia are not the same thing.

But at 500 AD from what I saw they were same tribes.

I was talking about the whole history in general terms. Most modern European nations start out in the early medieval era. Jews go way further back than that. We're more attached to the history when we wrote the bible and were sovereign in our own land rather than the 2000 years of exile. 

The Slavs are first mentioned in historical records in the 6th century CE. The earliest parts of the Hebrew Bible were written 1200 BCE.

 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

And why did Jews get like 60% of the land when they were 2x less?

Something called a war. 3 Arab countries invaded Israel and they lost out. It was a case of either all of the Jews or many of the Arabs living on the land. 

The Jews just came out of the Holocaust and needed their place back to preserve themselves so it's not just those simplistic numbers you put forward. 

 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

It is Israel fault for that. They funded and pushed for Hamas and tried to sabotage the more moderate Palestinian parties. There is concerte proof of that. So maybe ask Bibi to start supporting moderate Palestinians over Hamas. He did that so you can tell me here that "Palestinians are violent and they do not want peace blla blla".

Oke boss, if you say so. Everything is always Israel's fault.
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Your logic is: Let Palestinians live in terror and oppression so Israelis can live at peace.

Occupation/security control seems like the lesser of two evils. That's the tragedy of Palestinians behaving the way they do.

7/10 happened from Gaza, not the West Bank where Israel has more extensive security control. 

 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Support a Palestinian government that is pro co existance and two states, give them full independence and support and you will have a proper solution. 

But sure, there is something to be said for the relative moderation of the PA. At least they are not part of the Iran axis though the volatility is always there. 

 

Edited July 15 by Vrubel

[hundreth]

38 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Something called a war. 3 Arab countries invaded Israel and they lost out. It was a case of either all of the Jews or many of the Arabs living on the land. 

It's also more complex than that. Those oversimplified percentages don't include Jordan. 

Jordan was part of the Palestine mandate.

Quote

With the break-up of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, the League of Nations and the occupying powers, Britain and France, redrew the borders of the Middle East. Their decisions, most notably the Sykes–Picot Agreement, led to the establishment of the French Mandate for Syria and British Mandate for Palestine. The latter included the territory of Transjordan, which had been already allocated to Abdullah approximately a year prior to the finalization of the Mandate document (the Mandate officially introduced in 1923).[

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jordan

In July, 1922 Britain gave 73% of "Palestine" to the Arabs, most of which today is modern Jordan. Jews had purchased land in parts of this land, and they lost the rights to that land. They later gave them another 4%.

3,240,000 Palestinians today live in Jordan while 1,650,000 live in Israel.

More than 2,175,491 registered Palestine refugees live in Jordan, the largest number of Palestine refugees of all UNRWA fields.

Edited July 15 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

[Raze]

 

 

Edited July 15 by Raze

[Gennadiy1981]

7 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Bro they are the same ethnicity, Slavs. Same religion too. Even langugages are similar. They come from the same place, wherever it is. Too similar they are. We call them different now because things change throughout the times.

Bro no Christian countries left. Only some hardcore Islam ones like Iran and Saudi. Even countries like Egypt, Morocco etc are secular. They have civil law, not Sharia law. And all Christian countries have civil law.

Gaza and West Bank are not Israel. Israel has clearly defined borders. If you want to expand them, then you are breaking international law and are an invader.

Man you are so wrong, I was born in Ukraine and they are two different entities. Ok they are Slavs but so is most of Eastern Europe, you can’t judge that. Even before the war they were very different, they were friendly but man different. Each ethnicity has derogatory for the other.

What do you mean Gaza and West Bank is not Israel, it’s more Israel than not, that’s where most of the Bible takes place. And Palestine never existed as a country, there was no such thing, they never had their own currency, no president, no flag, no language, nothing. 
 

Now if you are ok with your country being taken over (Albania, Ahem) that’s your problem, you refuse to fight for it, your loss. 

Regarding religious status, you missed the point, most countries have their religions embedded in them, I am not saying where people are being executed based on Bible but where the country runs based on religious dogma. Let’s not go to such extreme let’s take USA as many here are familiar on the forum. The Sabbath here is Sunday, everything is off on Sunday, all parking meters and road cleaning is suspended on Sunday, holidays like Christmas and Easter are national holidays, in every court room it says in God we trust, the dollar bills have word God, you will find Bible in pretty much every hotels room and so on, and this is the most moderate, now I am not even getting into Egypt and Jordan which is by the way more radical. 

@Vrubel I understand your point but I think you are referring more to autonomy not a state, cause if we keep Jordan Valley which borders with Jordan and most settlements which you say, there is Alamo no land mass left, let’s be honest, so you are speaking of he Palestinians to have self governance but within Israel. I get it, and it may be ideal solution in your eyes but I am going one step further and this will not work, it will just turn into a cycle of violence. 
 

@VrubelAnd this is a private conversation between you and I, as most on this forum will not understand, you realize that the only goal of Palestinians is the elongation of Israel, you do realize that they don’t want a state and if God forbid they will achieve that goal (which they won’t) they will join their lands with Jordan and Egypt, their only existence is to oppose Israel, that’s why the Arabs world values them, because the Arab world have no other way to get rid of Israel legally, so they are the only wild card they have, if PLO goes then Israel is here to stay forever. 

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Man you are so wrong, I was born in Ukraine and they are two different entities. Ok they are Slavs but so is most of Eastern Europe, you can’t judge that. Even before the war they were very different, they were friendly but man different. Each ethnicity has derogatory for the other.

All Slavs come originally from 1 place, perhaps 3000 years ago. They are called "Slavs" for a reason. Go back enough in time to see. 

4 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Even before the war they were very different, they were friendly but man different. Each ethnicity has derogatory for the other.

I will repeat it since you seem to not get it. I am talking about a time frame of 1000 to 2000 years here. What war are you talking about? Was there a specific war on 200 AD I am not remembering? Maybe another one 1000 BC. This is the timeframe I use. Not 1920.

So when I say Russia and Ukraine originated from 1 place, I am saying they did probably 2000 years ago for example.

6 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

What do you mean Gaza and West Bank is not Israel, it’s more Israel than not, that’s where most of the Bible takes place

As a secular citizen, I do not look into Bibles or Qurans when it comes to borders. I look at the international law. Bible is irrelevant to me.

The world does not operate on Bibles. We use codified civil law in 2024. If want holy book governance go to Iran or Afghanistan.

If you want Israel to become the Iran of Judaism, then at least tell me so I will reply to you in a different manner.

I am replying to you as as secular orange person, not a blue fundamentalist.

8 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Now if you are ok with your country being taken over (Albania, Ahem) that’s your problem, you refuse to fight for it, your loss. 

No, I meant tons of our land was taken from us in the past, Poland too. We are not trying to illegally take it back because it was ours at some point.

Israel is with West Bank.

 

[Gennadiy1981]

@Karmadhi oh one more point, I see you constantly proposing to remove “settlements” basically Jewish communities who live in West Bank for Palestinian state, but what about the two million Arabs who live in what you call Israeli proper? Do we remove them and move to the future Palestinian state? Or your proposal applies only to Jews. Like it’s ok to be Jews from their home (by the way for most who were already born there) it’s ok to lock Jews out but God forbid we touch Arabs? Just want to know your logic? If you are ok to remove 700k Jews from WB, are you ok to removed 2M Arabs from Israel proper? I want to see if same logic applies there as well. That will tell me a lot about your perspective.

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Do we remove them and move to the future Palestinian state? O

 

So both Arab Muslims in Israel and Jews in the new Palestinian state can either choose to live where they want or have to go to the other state.

Of course I support equality here.

Edited July 15 by Karmadhi

[Gennadiy1981]

@Karmadhi I am not a slav and I don’t know such deep history so I will not argue with you on that, but I said way before the war with Russia and Ukraine that is happening now, they were two distinct people, and whenever they are abroad, a Ukrainian will never say he is Russian, which by the way many people abroad use the term interchangebly but that is a lack of historical knowledge. I don’t know about when they came all from one people, but if you want to dig so deep, we all come from Adam and Eve, how about that. It’s just during the Tower of Babel, God divided us into 70 nations.

I am not saying for Israel to become like Iran, but I am saying for Israel to retain its Jewish biblical culture as same example I gave in my post about USA. 
 

Let me evaluate this more, when I worked for one American actually government company in the past, I had to negotiate with them to leave early on Fridays at noon, or during the corporate celebrations everyone were pigging on the food and I could not as no kosher food was available or I had to bring my own and etc. I don’t want to live like that, I don’t want to be a minority living among majority and if I will stay in one country, I know I have a ticket to go back at any time. And by the way, thanks to one Indian Boss, he allowed me to leave early but do you know how much I had to juggle with? Or for example you get say 2 weeks of vocation, but we have a holiday of Tabernacle (Sukkoth) and Passover, each 8 days, there you have all your vocation but what about Rosh Hashana (new year), Yom Kippur (day of attainment) and so much more. And those who want to be more observant by ranking additional holidays off, I saw how they had issues with work and were even let go. So why I do need to go through that S***. Not interested. 

[Raze]

 

[Vrubel]

20 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

 
@Vrubel I understand your point but I think you are referring more to autonomy not a state, cause if we keep Jordan Valley which borders with Jordan and most settlements which you say, there is Alamo no land mass left, let’s be honest, so you are speaking of he Palestinians to have self governance but within Israel. I get it, and it may be ideal solution in your eyes but I am going one step further and this will not work, it will just turn into a cycle of violence. 

I mean just direct border control by Israel. It's just crucial that all security will be done by Israel. They will only have a limited force for internal security. 

They will be a state, except for that aspect. This should not be unreasonable. 

 

26 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

 

@VrubelAnd this is a private conversation between you and I, as most on this forum will not understand, you realize that the only goal of Palestinians is the elongation of Israel, you do realize that they don’t want a state and if God forbid they will achieve that goal (which they won’t) they will join their lands with Jordan and Egypt, their only existence is to oppose Israel, that’s why the Arabs world values them, because the Arab world have no other way to get rid of Israel legally, so they are the only wild card they have, if PLO goes then Israel is here to stay forever. 

I know, something like 80% of West Bank Palestinians support Hamas. Palestinians definitely won't be able to handle full democracy. If they are still hostile after having their state and doing 7/10 shit or other terrorism then we reserve the right to invade them and drive them out to Jordan. But that's just a hypothetical. 

I don't think most Arab countries care so much anymore about Israel's existence. Apart from the Iranian axis, they don't do any actions to really undermine Israel. For the the sensible leadership among them, Israel and US are an asset that brings stability and a counterbalance against Iran. 

For example, Jordan is a Palestinian-majority state but even so, they are somewhat allied with Israel. If the Jordanian leadership falls this will be disastrous for Jordan and also very bad for Israel as Iran will get a new foothold along Israel's longest border. 

 

[Gennadiy1981]

@Vrubel I get your point but what you are advocating is more like autonomous republic, where a landmass has their own police and their own governance but not their own military, that’s very typical in Eastern Europe actually and in middle eastern countries as well, actually take Iran, they have a lot of autonomous republics even one Arabic republic and Kurds and so on. 
 

So your point is, give them a state and if they will attack us, then drive them out. But keep in mind, once that state becomes legal, then you cannot eliminate that state, then you will have international sanctions, see as of now there is not state, but once a state be proclaimed it’s there to stay. Same with Gaza, I remember Sharon was beating his chest and saying that if one rocket will fall we will wipe out and take it back, but once you proclaim independent it’s almost impossible impossible to take it back and see the backlash, I mean see absurdity, they entered our border, took our citizens and on the next day, the rallies started even before Israel did anything. (By the way even back then, I was screaming of the mountain tops not to do the expulsion, that’s when I got into activism, but most people told me, not to worry, everything be good and if they dare to throw one rocket, they will be wiped out).
 

So the sages in the Talmud ask, “who is wise?” And they answer “He who sees tomorrow, today”. You know that their go is elimination of Israel of any shape or size, so what you are proposing is to play the game, extending it, show to the world and then pretty much do what I advice to do. But in my case, it’s done quickly, swiftly and less causalities and probably less war and destruction. The end goal is the same, I am just foreseeing to save a lot of people and by the way both Jewish and Arabs.

[Vrubel]

5 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Vrubel I get your point but what you are advocating is more like autonomous republic, where a landmass has their own police and their own governance but not their own military, that’s very typical in Eastern Europe actually and in middle eastern countries as well, actually take Iran, they have a lot of autonomous republics even one Arabic republic and Kurds and so on. 
 

So your point is, give them a state and if they will attack us, then drive them out. But keep in mind, once that state becomes legal, then you cannot eliminate that state, then you will have international sanctions, see as of now there is not state, but once a state be proclaimed it’s there to stay. Same with Gaza, I remember Sharon was beating his chest and saying that if one rocket will fall we will wipe out and take it back, but once you proclaim independent it’s almost impossible impossible to take it back and see the backlash, I mean see absurdity, they entered our border, took our citizens and on the next day, the rallies started even before Israel did anything. (By the way even back then, I was screaming of the mountain tops not to do the expulsion, that’s when I got into activism, but most people told me, not to worry, everything be good and if they dare to throw one rocket, they will be wiped out).
 

So the sages in the Talmud ask, “who is wise?” And they answer “He who sees tomorrow, today”. You know that their go is elimination of Israel of any shape or size, so what you are proposing is to play the game, extending it, show to the world and then pretty much do what I advice to do. But in my case, it’s done quickly, swiftly and less causalities and probably less war and destruction. The end goal is the same, I am just foreseeing to save a lot of people and by the way both Jewish and Arabs.

Good points but as opposed to the Gaza withdrawal, this will be done with a black-on-white treaty. If they violate their part of the treaty, we will be back at war. Superpowers like the US and China can also sign into the treaty to safeguard the terms for both sides. Basically Palestinians will lose the right to their state if they use it for the purpose of hostility, all this should be clearly defined in the treaty. 

The semantics and technical details of what constitutes a proper state state doesn't matter much. Most countries in the world already consider Palestine a state. They will be a state, just with a few compromises to accommodate the legitimate concerns of the Israelis. 

Edited July 16 by Vrubel

[Bobby_2021]

Conscription about to start for the Ultra Orthodox Jews. 

Good move by the supreme court.

[Karmadhi]

This thread reached 100 pages too.

 

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

This thread reached 100 pages too.

 

   YES! CONGRATULATIONS!!WOHO!THREAD IS 100 YEARS OLD!🌟🌟🔥🔥👋👋🤣🤣🤗

[Raze]

 

Edited July 16 by Raze