Israel / Palestine News Thread

[PurpleTree]

15 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I agree that no ethnicity have to be privileged, but technically you still need at least 50% of the power to the law and court to stay western.

To stay western or jewish?

 

24 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I will go back and research. Busy right now. Just your tone seems to be a bit apologetic. Calling you Pro Israel was perhaps a bit of an exageration. My apologies.

I just think this endless back and forth on a message board is quite ridiculous. 

You are not changing anybodys mind. You are not changing anything. You are not helping anybody in the warzone with your posts. And you’re not a better person because of it, not at all. Maybe it makes you feel a bit better about yourself.

And that’s not to you personally mostly to the guys writing their ideological essays on here and stuff.

Edited October 15 by PurpleTree

[Nivsch]

8 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

To stay western or jewish?

Western. Orange. Human rights. Individual rights.

[zazen]

There's an argument that goes, "If you or any other society were in our position, you'd act the same," but that's simply not true. In the other thread about Western imperialism, a similar claim is  made: "If another country or civilization had the wealth, power, and tools that the West has, they'd also exploit it through global conquest and domination the way the US does today." I've seen many right wingers use this case of projection and universalizing of bad behavior as a way to excuse it because it's just a ''inevitability'' of human nature - an ''externality'' of a ''system of perverse incentives'' (moloch) that absolves any one party of blame.

Many civilizations throughout history, despite possessing the military and economic means to engage in aggressive territorial conquest, chose other pathways to spread their influence. Through religion, culture, trade, or diplomacy. The Islamic Golden Age, the Mauryan Empire under Ashoka, and the Tang Dynasty are just a few examples of civilizations (on different continents) that exercised restraint or focused on cultural diffusion rather than outright domination.

They demonstrate that violent conquest is not an inevitable result of power. It's a choice that's been resisted by some of the greatest empires in history. These civilizations recognized that expansion and influence don’t need to be built on the corpses of your enemies. The imperial mindset - that to be powerful means to dominate is retroactively used by imperial apologists in the West to excuse the blood soaked history of their own empires. They conflate wealth with worth, and so any means that helps them to obtain and accumulate wealth/resources is glorified and justified. This is where the 'might makes right' mentality stems from. 

Edited October 15 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

28 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I agree that no ethnicity should be privileged, but technically you still need to have slightly above 50% of the power to the law and court to stay western.

Issue Leo is saying Nivsch is that Israel gives special rights and privileges to Jews over non Jews.

The percentage of population is irrelevant, what matters is that a Jewish person should be equal to a non Jewish person.

 

Edited October 15 by Karmadhi

[royce]

25 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

You are not changing anybodys mind. You are not changing anything.

You're talking about yourself, maybe you're being too closed-minded. People change their minds all the time—I change mine every day.

Be water my friend.

Edited October 15 by royce

[Karmadhi]

28 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

I just think this endless back and forth on a message board is quite ridiculous. 

You are not changing anybodys mind. You are not changing anything. You are not helping anybody in the warzone with your posts. And you’re not a better person because of it, not at all. Maybe it makes you feel a bit better about yourself.

And that’s not to you personally mostly to the guys writing their ideological essays on here and stuff.

Why are you writting here then?

If you see it as pointless.

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, zazen said:

"If you or any other society were in our position, you'd act the same," but that's simply not true

Do you see France sitting here between Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria and not acting the same as Israel does? Of course it will.

Edited October 15 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

16 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Issue Leo is saying Nivsch is that Israel gives special rights and privileges to Jews over non Jews.

The percentage of population is irrelevant, what matters is that a Jewish person should be equal to a non Jewish person.

 

@Nivsch's point is that without the Jewish majority the votes will inevitably lead to non western values. Which seems true. If votes are determining policy, that will be the result.

[hundreth]

45 minutes ago, zazen said:

As far as Israel is concerned, they literally create their survival challenges by their very own policy. No country or group is actually a existential threat to Israel, yet they amplify them as threats to their ''survival'' to justify their policies of ''defense'' which happen to be settlement expansion and further land grabbing now to create buffer zones between them and their ''enemies''.

To be fair, Israel has had major wars with multiple Arab / Muslim nations attacking them at once with the goal of their extermination. This occurred while Gaza / West Bank were not in their control.

This is a valid concern.

It's hard to say how much the landscape has changed and what is true today, but this all happened basically yesterday.

[PurpleTree]

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Why are you writting here then?

If you see it as pointless.

No reason.

I was trying to find a reason but I couldn’t.

Edited October 15 by PurpleTree

[hundreth]

Sometimes it's worth zooming out just a little.

[royce]

@hundreth  I really hope you're just trolling, please tell me you're not being that simple. 

[hundreth]

Just now, royce said:

@hundreth  I really hope you're just trolling, please tell me you're not being that simple. 

It isn't the whole picture, but if you're capable of holding two truths at once there is something there.

Of course this doesn't take away from the plight of the Palestinians and isn't justification for land theft.

It's just that at the end of the day, what's done is done. The Jews are there now. Much like how the Jews were exiled from land to land over the years, even as recently as post 1948, the Palestinians have essentially been exiled. It is not their fault, but this is what happened. In the case of the Jews, Israel has taken in most of these refugees, and life goes on. In the case of the Palestinians, a conceptual division was created between them and the rest of the Muslim / Arab world - and thus life for them cannot go on. They must fight to the death for lines on a map. 

Where does this fight to the death lead? To death. There will not be a two state solution. There won't be a state within a state where is a tunnel linking one side of Palestine to the other. There won't be a one state solution where a population war ensues and constant conflict. The end result is the exile of the Palestinians one way or the other. And if not, then the extermination of the Jews living there now. In either scenario, it's not good. 

With all the money and resources spent on this never ending war, and all the lives lost - these Palestinians could all have been multi millionaires living somewhere else. Now of course not everything is about money, but life goes on. Life isn't about lines on a map either. 

[zazen]

36 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Sometimes it's worth zooming out just a little.

Netenyahu and Ben Shapiro used this to influence Jordan Peterson lol. I kind of get it at a glance but we have to zoom out whilst not missing depth and distinction. This is propaganda at play which can easily deceive us, including me when I first saw it.

Imagine suggesting that a European country should cede land or sovereignty for the benefit of another group based solely on shared European identity.

It’s illogical and un-ethical particularly to the people who have deep rooted historical ties to that land. This conflation is used to dilute distinct identities into one big grouping of “Arabs” to then make it look like they’re unreasonable in not just giving a slither of their “collective” land. Imagine Portugal had to give up land to a persecuted group and they were told it’s fine because they’re European and there’s plenty of European states.

 

Edited October 15 by zazen

[hundreth]

Just now, zazen said:

It’s illogical and un-ethical particularly to the people who have deep rooted historical ties to that land. This conflation is used to dilute distinct identities into one big grouping of “Arabs” to then make it look like their u reasonable to just give a slither of their “collective” land. Imagine Portugal had to give up land because it’s European.

I think given the alternatives, it is the most reasonable. Are European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews the "same entity?" - probably even further apart than the Palestinians and other Arabs. They are together now because it is practical.

The alternative is one side wins. Maybe "your" side wins, and justice is served. I'm guessing this applies more to @royce than yourself, who is happy to see dead Zionists. Ok great, now all of the Jews are wiped out from the area. Will this extermination be justice? Will a fight to the death where Palestinians are exiled be justice?

This is the reality, and given that reality I believe it is "logical." It may not be idealistic, but it is logical.

[royce]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

It isn't the whole picture

I am surprised because the picture shows that all Arab countries are fighting Israel, while in reality, only the Gaza Strip and southern Lebanon are fighting Israel and America. The rulers of the Arab countries in red, controlled by America , and they are also fighting Gaza, especially the surrounding countries, Egypt and Jordan. If you follow their policies more deeply

 

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

a conceptual division was created between them and the rest of the Muslim / Arab world -

This point has some truth to it, but not in the way you imagine. There is a genocide happening in Gaza, and Arabs and Muslims are watching it on Al Jazeera. I agree with you. But do you know the number of detainees in Egypt and Jordan because of Palestine? Do you know how many opinion prisoners there are in the Arab world? Do you know that Arab countries from east to west are ruled with iron and fire? So, it depends on how you look at the issue. If you look at the result, yes, I agree with you. But if you delve deeper, among the 400 million Arabs, there are a million ready to die for Palestine (Regardless of Muslims). and October 7th charged this sentiment in a terrifying way. The matter is related to the survival of Arab regimes.

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

There will not be a two state solution

I know there won't be a two-state solution, and it's possible that all Palestinians may be displaced from their land. But why do you want all this without resistance? You can go ahead with your project, and the Palestinians will follow theirs. You don't know what's best for them more than they do, even if their path leads to death.

Palestine is precious ;;)  you must struggle to attain it. The war is very long

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

The alternative is one side wins. Maybe "your" side wins, and justice is served. I'm guessing this applies more to @royce 

No, I don't see things that way — my side winning or losing. I view things with complete neutrality. But how can you expect me not to stand with the oppressed against the oppressor? I don’t claim to be a good person, but does all this injustice really not stir anything in you?

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

@royce than yourself, who is happy to see dead Zionists

Yes, I feel happy when I see a dead Zionist, because they are the aggressors. Let the Israeli mother taste the same cup that the Palestinian mother is drinking from. Maybe then she will understand something about the suffering of the people her son is killing.

 

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

Ok great, now all of the Jews are wiped out from the area. Will this extermination be justice? Will a fight to the death where Palestinians are exiled be justice?

This talk is unrealistic and disconnected from the reality when you look at the current balance of power in the world. The Jews have killed 50,000 people and injured 100,000, and you're telling me all of the Jews are wiped out from  the region? What you're saying doesn't make sense. I liked your first response; it was more reasonable than this. Don’t play the victim – you're the aggressor and the stronger right now because of USA , Stick with that

Edited October 15 by royce

[royce]

oh

 

Edited October 15 by royce

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, royce said:

I am surprised because the picture shows that all Arab countries are fighting Israel, while in reality, only the Gaza Strip and southern Lebanon are fighting Israel and America. The rulers of the Arab countries in red, controlled by America , and they are also fighting Gaza, especially the surrounding countries, Egypt and Jordan. If you follow their policies more deeply

 

It isn't about fighting Israel, but more about the idea of Arab / Muslim land as opposed to Jewish.

Quote

This point has some truth to it, but not in the way you imagine. There is a genocide happening in Gaza, and Arabs and Muslims are watching it on Al Jazeera. I agree with you. But do you know the number of detainees in Egypt and Jordan because of Palestine? Do you know how many opinion prisoners there are in the Arab world? Do you know that Arab countries from east to west are ruled with iron and fire? So, it depends on how you look at the issue. If you look at the result, yes, I agree with you. But if you delve deeper, among the 400 million Arabs, there are a million ready to die for Palestine (Regardless of Muslims). and October 7th charged this sentiment in a terrifying way. The matter is related to the survival of Arab regimes.

Unfortunately I'm struggling to understand what you're saying here. My point was related to the Palestinians being forcefully classified as a different entity. What do the 400 million believe about this? And why?

Quote

I know there won't be a two-state solution, and it's possible that all Palestinians may be displaced from their land. But why do you want all this without resistance? You can go ahead with your project, and the Palestinians will follow theirs. You don't know what's best for them more than they do, even if their path leads to death.

Palestine is precious ;;)  you must struggle to attain it. The war is very long

And what makes you think you know what's best? You seem to be very opinionated about the fact that endless resistance is their best course.

Quote

No, I don't see things that way — my side winning or losing. I view things with complete neutrality. But how can you expect me not to stand with the oppressed against the oppressor? I don’t claim to be a good person, but does all this injustice really not stir anything in you?

I don't expect anything from you. I think it's natural most will side the Palestinians on the matter as the original aggression was against them. And of course the injustice troubles me, so as I wrestle with it I consider different trains of thought here. I'd like to see the Palestinians do well, and have the least amount of bloodshed altogether for all involved.

Quote

Yes, I feel happy when I see a dead Zionist, because they are the aggressors. Let the Israeli mother taste the same cup that the Palestinian mother is drinking from. Maybe then she will understand something about the suffering of the people her son is killing.

And what do you believe this understanding will do? Is this revenge against an Israeli mother going to make her more sympathetic to the Palestinians? Or do you just want there to be pain? Why? And is this 18 year old soldier who lost his life the real problem? Btw I believe the same about the young Hamas combatants. All of the combatants are victims of circumstance. If they were each born on the other side, they would likely fight for the other side.

Quote

This talk is unrealistic and disconnected from the reality when you look at the current balance of power in the world. The Jews have killed 50,000 people and injured 100,000, and you're telling me all of the Jews are wiped out from  the region? What you're saying doesn't make sense. I liked your first response; it was more reasonable than this. Don’t play the victim – you're the aggressor and the stronger right now because of USA , Stick with that

I'm playing no victim, as I laid out both possibilities with an endless resistance. I do think it is more likely the Palestinians are wiped out, but it is completely possible the Jews are as well. It is only a matter of time until Iran obtains nuclear weapons. Really anything can happen on a long enough timeline.

[Nemra]

4 minutes ago, hundreth said:

It isn't about fighting Israel, but more about the idea of Arab / Muslim land as opposed to Jewish.

What if that is the boogeyman for Israel to keep attacking?

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Nemra said:

What if that is the boogeyman for Israel to keep attacking?

You believe Israel wants to conquer all Arab / Muslim land?

The truth is this ongoing war empowers the worst sheisters in society to gain an edge and influence. I never even heard of "Greater Israel" once until October 7. The war fuels extremism. 

Edited October 15 by hundreth