Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When you come in here acting defensive, it's clear there is no interest in you for understanding this issue in any depth, or unraveling the web of self-deceptions at the heart of Israeli society.

It's like you guys learned nothing from my work.

If I may share my position.

Every disagreement, argument, investigation, deepening etc is totally OK, interesting and desirable as long as the game is fair and there are no generalizations.

Edited 44 minutes ago by Nivsch

[Dabidoe]

None of us are immune from the web of self deception. Only a select few can truly "undo the cultural programming" and for whatever reason the actualization this forum represents will only ever apply to a % of our lives/behaviors. Vast majority of humanity will inevitably fall into outrage, bias, idiocy especially when talking about culture war topics.

[Thought Art]

Thoughts?

 

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Where does this guy live?

Lets assume randonally (since I don't know at this moment) France?

Ok, then French people do terrible things like rape.

How do I know that?

Because statistically every day there must be at least one case of rape there.

Thats it. I made the case.

When use this kind of tactics, I can claim infinitely, to the negative or positive direction, about any country or group of people just however I want and it will be true.

After that, those people like this guy will not have to be surprised when Israelis in the media (AKA propaganda) will say only the good things about Israel, because this is the only way they feel they can take action to balance the situation and achieve a fair outcome.

It happens in the media as well as here.

What about this?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sde_Teiman_detention_camp

Quote

Multiple released Palestinian detainees have testified they and others, including children, were subjected to rape, gang-rape, other forms of sexual violence as well as psychological and physical torture by both male and female Israeli soldiers and medical staff.[4][5][6][3] Multiple reports also speak of prisoners who suffered from medical neglect for injuries sustained, which led to cases of arm and leg amputations. Their testimonies have been corroborated by whistleblowing Israeli staff and a CNN investigation.[1] The mistreated detainees also included Palestinian healthcare workers who had been captured during Israeli raids on Gaza's hospitals.[7]

 

Edited 6 hours ago by Raze

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Thoughts?

 

I mean it’s very fair to ask for proof for those beheadings and such

It‘s also fair to adk wtf the  IDF was doing that day.

It‘s fair to throw Bibi in jail.

It‘s fair to criticise Zionists and their project.

It‘s fair to criticise Islam and call it backwards.

But the guy is seemingly also supporting a regime who oppresses women and disapears people and dissidents.

So it’s whatever, just muppets arguing.

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Israel is only 75 years old as a nation. There are human beings alive who are older than Israel. That puts their development a bit into perspective for you.

I do not see how that justifies their inhumane barbaric actions to be honest.

Edited 6 hours ago by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Part of Israelis of course the same.

Yes, for sure. Gideon Levy and the B'Tselem staff are examples of high moral development.

But I fear they represent a small group of people.

If Israelis are ONLY protesting for the hostages and not for the tons of civilians dying in Gaza as a result of their military, then sorry but it is not a high moral development society.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/19/jewish-protest-israel-gaza-washington-dc

This is an example of high moral development coming from American Jews.

How common is this in Israel?

Note: Protesting to end the war because you only care about the hostages, is NOT a high moral stand. It is Blue.

Green morality which is the case in Western Europe protests for both your own people and the innocents of the enemy group.

Edited 4 hours ago by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi I want to try to comment to you in a constructive way and not tomato-throwing which I think I am ok in and always try to improve, but after Leo's message I want to take it into account and respect this to deepens my awareness. I Don't want to feel I talk too much so I stop now and write you in the night (here).

Edited 4 hours ago by Nivsch

[Mr Being]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When you come in here acting defensive, it's clear there is no interest in you for understanding this issue in any depth, or unraveling the web of self-deceptions at the heart of Israeli society.

It's like you guys learned nothing from my work.

And are you? Your posts are coming from heavily anti-Israeli biased sources with plenty of misinformation and half truths, like in the video posted on your blog. The distorted depiction of Zionism and Zionist leaders as colonial fascists with a clear intention of ethnically cleansing the Arab population, without mentioning the part of the Palestinian and Arab leadership and their collaboration with the Nazis, The closure of Jewish immigration during the Holocaust and when fleeing the pogroms, and without the proper context to quotes (and misquotes) and terms (such as 'population transfer' during the eras of empire collapse and wartime), gives a very distorted and partial understanding of the subject in depth.

I think a better (and fair) documentary of the historical context prior to the '48 war can be found on KAN 11 channel here (mostly in Hebrew but with English subs):

https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan/kan-11/p-12013/english-subtitles/155291/

If you're interested, I can provide some sources that present a Israeli/Zionist perspective  without resorting to straw man thier position, for a more meaningful discussion and a deeper understanding of the issue, while also allowing for a fair and critical analysis of all sources.

[Karmadhi]

30 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I want to try to comment to you in a constructive way and not tomato-throwing which I think I am ok in and always try to improve, but after Leo's message I want to take it into account and respect this to deepens my awareness. I Don't want to feel I talk too much so I stop now and write you in the night (here).

To be honest you are the most reasonable and non biased Israeli/pro Israeli person on this forum.

I can tell this much.

[Miguel1]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When you come in here acting defensive, it's clear there is no interest in you for understanding this issue in any depth, or unraveling the web of self-deceptions at the heart of Israeli society.

It's like you guys learned nothing from my work.

Every once in a while, I wonder to myself did the members come from your YT videos or from somewhere else

[Anon212]

This documentary is literally 10/10. This is the sobering reality of the situation. It got restricted as soon as it went up.

 

 

 

[royce]

1 hour ago, Miguel1 said:

from somewhere else

They are soldiers who served in the IDF—don't forget that.

[Basman]

On 04/10/2024 at 3:26 AM, Leo Gura said:

I wanted to, but I don't want to cause outrage and get smeared.

Make it members only or something like that.

[Socrates]

Imagine while having the leverage of the US backup and the bought media, and you continue to do terrorism by killing non-combatants and bombing schools and hospitals.

Israel has reached nazi Germany's levels of evil and unfortunately, there is no redeemable road. 

Now if you're still somehow defending this, you are a part of the problem and you should face similar consequences for aiding and supporting war crimes. I've seen so many crimes on videos there is nothing I can see happening to settlers and supporters of Zionism that I will bat an eye for.
We are so used to Israeli lies and propaganda and simultaneously reports of terrorism and deliberate attacks on women and children that we forget how often they have been doing it to also journalists, humanitarian aid workers, and others. Not to mention group chats and telegram groups of thousands of Jews celebrating these horrors and baby killings.

Mind you this is not just news of last year, they have been doing this for decades. Now let's talk conscious politics, should the US, Israeli, and corporate leaders be prosecuted? 100%. If not I can hear the lynching solution. Can you pay or serve some kind of sentence to whitewash such crimes? No, you can't really. One thing is certain, there has to be a punishment for these things for Israel and the US included.

[PurpleTree]

3 minutes ago, Socrates said:

Israel has reached nazi Germany's levels of evil. 

Has it?

[Socrates]

 

10 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Has it?

10 fold 
 

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Your demonization is so dark and basically isn't better than any of the things you uprise on.

apply the same relativity to Hitler and tell me how that goes. You wouldn't be that lax in real time, why are you now?
 

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

But you can't see the darkness coming from you when you generalize in such a way. Attitude like this an obstacle to peace just like the things you mistakenly claim you are above.

There never was a goal for peace for Jews, the moment they had an unbalanced power dynamic they never cared about peace. History proves that extensively. If the carrot won't motivate peace, maybe the stick will.

[Heaven]

@Socrates Your username is the complete opposite of who you are. Your choice of words is showing a toxic mind and soul. 
 

[zazen]

@Heaven Hypothetically, if Palestinians occupied Israelis, should the Israelis resist this occupation?

Also hypothetically, let’s say Israel defeats Hamas and they no longer exist. What should Israel do with all the Palestinians that remain in Gaza and West Bank? Will they become part of Israeli society with equal rights or be given their own state?

[Heaven]

It’s been a year since October 7th.
I truly believe that something positive will rise out of this war.

May all the sacrifices will construct a better society at large. 

Try to love instead of hate. Hate brings war, Love brings peace.