Israel / Palestine News Thread

[zazen]

On 21/09/2024 at 9:29 AM, zazen said:

Interesting video:

A lot of Americans like to hail the constitution as an inked embodiment of their progress - they assume a purity of purpose that never existed in the founding of that document. The initial Constitution didn’t extend voting rights to non-whites, women or non-landowners - it was for white male landowners (the wealthy elite). As voting rights expanded, the value of voting contracted as elites consolidated and entrenched themselves in the state apparatus, what often gets called ‘the establishment’ or ‘deep state’. That’s why critics of democracy including Westerners themselves feel disillusioned and often say democracy is more an illusion than a reality - because special interests (elites) still control things just as before.

As Leo said, ideals (of democracy justice etc) take time to materialise. I’ll add, that vested interests also use those ideals as a cloak of rhetoric to cover up underlying power dynamics, where that power lies, and who it serves. Similarly, the idea or ideal of a chosen people gave moral cover to European settlers in the new Americas and set the tone for justifying their “manifest density” - that they are divinely ordained to expand and claim land. This is where Israel and America are similar, except that America has fulfilled its manifestation (domestically) and Israel hasn’t - though this same attitude still causes America to seek and maintain global hegemony which is why critics claim America or ‘the West’ hasn’t evolved from its colonial days.

Early European settlers were heavily influenced by the Bible as it was the most widely read book at that time. This is why in America places have Biblically referenced names like Salem, Jericho, Bethlehem, Hebron and Zion. Thomas Jefferson who is considered a man of Enlightenment said the following: “The acquisition of the country from the Indians is to be carried on by the extension of our settlements..by driving them back within narrower limits.” Sounds similar to what’s coming out of Israel today.

 

The point of sharing Ben Gurion’s words a few pages back was to highlight at least a inkling of acknowledgment on his part of who is the aggressor and instigator of injustice in the Palestine issue - though he justified it through Zionist logic.

Most countries, if not all, are founded on violence. The difference as I’ve emboldened in the post above is that Israel hasn’t finished finding itself in the context of what it claims to be their homeland.

Across the world nations have resolved their territorial disputes by integrating indigenous or external groups as citizens, rather than excluding them in an apartheid-like system or leaving them in a state of limbo for decades into the modern age. Ironically, it’s the natives who are oppressed into a purgatory realm of statelessness who are called ‘backward’.

Imagine if in America, Native Americans were not integrated into the country’s democracy but were sidelined instead. Then, when they demanded a state of their own due to being unwanted, they were denied even that possibility. When they resisted, they were labeled and gaslit as terrorists. If one can’t see the absurdity in this, they must be absurd themselves.

Edited Friday at 03:04 AM by zazen

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

That can also be flipped around to saying Israel's efforts are for the greater good as well.   Getting into relative and absolutes now..so..yeah relatively speaking who's right?  The horrors are terrible but in the end we know what it comes down to.  Your favorite topic.

Survival. 

My fave topic is truth.

If Zionists wanna use violence and do ethnic cleansing, that's fine, but don't obfuscate about it, with moral grandstanding. The issue is that Zionists refuse to admit the relativity of the issue, they claim moral absolutes and high ground for themselves, and do the crocodile tears as soon as they get a taste of their own medicine.

If you wanna plead survival, fine. Then Oct 7th was also survival. And so was Hitler.

The problem is this: survival for me but not for thee.

My function here is to point out such biases.

Edited Friday at 03:26 AM by Leo Gura

[MarkKol]

The Jews left Europe once Europe became peaceful, even with the Russo-Ukrainian war, I'd consider most of Western and Eastern Europe as a pretty peaceful place, they should've stayed. The Israel state seems like a mistake to me, from Its founding to its current situation. Once the Jews decided to found their own state in the Middle East, they brought death to the Palestinians and to themselves.

Edited Friday at 02:50 AM by MarkKol

[zazen]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My fave topic is truth.

If Israelis wanna use violence and do ethnic cleansing that's fine, but don't lie to us about it, with the fake moral grandstanding. The issue is that Zionists refuse to admit the relativity of the issue, they claim moral absolutes and high ground.

If you wanna plead survival. Fine. Then Palestinian bombs are also survival. And so was Hitler.

People often see the issue as complex and full of weeds not to be got into but it’s actually pretty straightforward. Straightening it out is hard, but it is simple to see who is the wronged party as acknowledged by the founding father of the nation - and that that party is still being wronged today is the whole problem.

The only reason people may find this situation complex is due to the decades of history in which a lot has happened and they lack the knowledge of facts on - including a ton of propaganda to obscure the situation. But if looked at bluntly, there is no moral high ground for the Israelis in this, just a moral quicksand that they and the West collectively are sinking in.

Can this really be what the West are backing and taking the world to the brink of global war for? Common lol. 

Edited Friday at 03:07 AM by zazen

[royce]

 

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My fave topic is truth.

If Zionists wanna use violence and do ethnic cleansing, that's fine, but don't lie to us about it, with the fake moral grandstanding. The issue is that Zionists refuse to admit the relativity of the issue, they claim moral absolutes and high ground for themselves, and do the crocodile tears as soon as they get a taste of their own medicine.

If you wanna plead survival, fine. Then Oct 7th was also survival. And so was Hitler.

The problem is this: survival for me but not for thee.

uff 

[royce]

[Inliytened1]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My fave topic is truth.

If Zionists wanna use violence and do ethnic cleansing, that's fine, but don't obfuscate about it, with moral grandstanding.

Oh Ok so that's where all the fuss is.  Its all clear now.

Edited Friday at 03:26 AM by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Oh Ok so that's where all the fuss is.  Its all clear now.

What I most take offense to in this conflict is the propaganda and biased coverage of it. The corrupt epistemology of it.

Because without a truthful and objective view of the situation, the situation cannot be made sense of, and cannot ultimately be resolved.

Justice and peace requires truth. Which explains why peace is so hard to keep.

Edited Friday at 03:29 AM by Leo Gura

[Alex4]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Against the Native Americans, yes.

Although I never read the America founding fathers employing the tactics of Ben-Gurion's and Menachim Begin's squads.

The early Spanish were definitely terroristic towards the natives.

Didn't the spanish succeed at the end?

[Alex4]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The far right supports the strong and the bully.

The far left supports the weak and the bullied.

Israel is the strong and the bully.

Palestine is the weak and the bullied.

Simple as that.

How come all right wingers in Europe support Ukraine?

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, MarkKol said:

Once the Jews decided to found their own state in the Middle East, they brought death to the Palestinians and to themselves.

You yourself most likely wouldn't agree to establish your state on a random land others would choose for you. You would feel even more humilliated, empty and meaningless. This is what many people miss out and fail to see on this issue. The choice of Israel was inevitable after this trauma.

Edited Friday at 08:34 AM by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

The only reason people may find this situation complex is due to the decades of history in which a lot has happened and they lack the knowledge of facts on - including a ton of propaganda to obscure the situation. But if looked at bluntly, there is no moral high ground for the Israelis in this, just a moral quicksand that they and the West collectively are sinking in.

Can this really be what the West are backing and taking the world to the brink of global war for? Common lol. 

The issue IS complex. You just see the West as a spirit-less unauthentic unnatural entity (whereas the Palestinians and Arabs as the only natural, organic, wisdom based...) and this subconscious view is projected now on every little thing Israel does or did. But this by itself is an artifical and biased view of course.

Edited Friday at 08:04 AM by Nivsch

[PurpleTree]

1 hour ago, Alex4 said:

How come all right wingers in Europe support Ukraine?

They don’t. Orban, AfD, Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Swiss right wing, Slovakian president, Austrian right wing etc. are Putin fanboys and girls.

Edited Friday at 09:00 AM by PurpleTree

[Alex4]

41 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

They don’t. Orban, AfD, Le Pen, Geert Wilders, Swiss right wing, Slovakian president, Austrian right wing etc. are Putin fanboys and girls.

They are the minority within the right. The entire center-right (PP) and the majority of the far-right in Europe support Ukraine. 

[PurpleTree]

59 minutes ago, Alex4 said:

They are the minority within the right. The entire center-right (PP) and the majority of the far-right in Europe support Ukraine. 

How are they a minority? If they are a minority then a very big one

Center, center right, center left are team Ukraine

most rightwing are Putin fanbois

some left wing are Putin fangirls

Edited Friday at 10:35 AM by PurpleTree

[How to be wise]

On 02/10/2024 at 3:20 AM, Leo Gura said:

It's much worse than illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants don't try to grab land for their native country.

It's a deliberate weaponization of immigration, with military, financial, and political support from the state.

Imagine if the American government paid 500,000 US citizens to move south of the border, build little cities, and then build exclusive super highways back to the US. And then the US military patrolled those highways shooting any Mexicans who protested and bulldozed their houses.

It's like a growing fungus.

Not their native country! Almost all the Israeli Jews today (93-95%) are descendants of Jews that came to Israel after 1948.
 

On the other hand, there are millions of Palestinian refugees living in the surrounding Arab countries who are all descendants of Arabs living in Palestine before 1948.

[royce]

 

[royce]

https://x.com/khamenei_ir

[PurpleTree]

7 minutes ago, royce said:

https://x.com/khamenei_ir

Pot calling the kettle black.

[Leo Gura]

37 minutes ago, royce said:

https://x.com/khamenei_ir

Great example of relativity at work.