Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

I will retract the pedo accusation for the sake of rigor. Dershowitz is gross enough without it.

Edited October 3 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

49 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Good. Keep an open mind and do more research. Your perspective will widen.

That's what it's all about.  I know I have bias towards Israel but I never said i agreed with how they responded.  They should have stopped long before they did.  I knew the numbers were high but the children does sting.  Yet other than that still support what they are doing.  They wouldn't even have a state right now if they didn't - they would probably be wiped out.   Call them bad guys, evil, Hitler, all that but they are a product of their environment as are you and me.

Edited October 4 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

59 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I wrote you what I think a page ago.

The reason I mentioned terrorism is because Israelis love calling others terrorists.

Do you see the double-standard of calling Palestinian leaders terrorists for trying to create a state for themselves but then saying it's "out of context" to call Israeli leaders terrorists?

If terrorism was okay to found Israel, why is it not okay to found Palestine?

Terrorism is a tool to found a state.

Edited October 4 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The reason I mentioned terrorism is because Israelis love calling others terrorists.

Do you see the double-standard of calling Palestinian leaders terrorists for trying to create a state for themselves but then saying it's "out of context" to call Israeli leaders terrorists?

Yes I get it.  Its all about perspective.  

US likes doing that too.

Who the terrorist is depends on what perspective you are looking at it from.

All of them have done "evil" of some sort but as you pointed out it comes down to degrees of that and also the context in which certain atrocities "happen".   Of course here we are splitting the needle so I see where you are coming from.  But relatively speaking we must still split that needle.

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The reason I mentioned terrorism is because Israelis love calling others terrorists.

Do you see the double-standard of calling Palestinian leaders terrorists for trying to create a state for themselves but then saying it's "out of context" to call Israeli leaders terrorists?

I understand, yes, but I didn't say 'out of context' about that, but about the displaying of the evil way Ben Gurion did as was "THE way" Israel has founded, which is unfair because it was just a slice of the story of this giant long war, which even it was an end result of 30 years of escalation from both sides started mainly from the 1920s.

Edited October 4 by Nivsch

[Raze]

If Israel bombs irans oil and Iran bombs other oil in the gulf as they threatened it could crash the economy. 

[Inliytened1]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Terrorism is a tool to found a state.

This nullifies using the term at all then when referencing individuals that found states.  Better to say they did things they aren't proud of to achieve a higher goal.  Maybe you widened your perspective tonight too and stop with the hatred.

Edited October 4 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

15 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

This nullifies using the term at all then when referencing individuals that found states.  Better to say they did things they aren't proud of to achieve a higher goal.

That doesn't work because the major terrorist Arab leaders are doing their acts in order to help Palestine gain statehood.

Are you okay with 9/11 being considered a thing they did to acheive a higher goal?

No.

The problem is that in the West, terrorism has become a Western propaganda term which means "unjustified violence", but of course this is a deeply biased and ethnocentic definiton because terrorism has always been done as a means towards a greater good, like fighting unjust oppressors and establishing national sovereignty. The problem with the West's framing of terrorism is that terrorism IS justified in the minds of those who do it. The West is shocked to learn this fact. But that's only because the West has been so self-absorbed as to not care would the needs of those it oppresses.

The game here is to oppress the hell out of the 3rd world and ignore their feelings until they finally lash out in anger, then slap the terrorist label on them so that all of their greivances can be ignored.

It's an abuse and gaslight strategy. Very psychologically devious.

Edited October 4 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

terrorism has always been done as a means towards a greater good, like fighting unjust oppressors and establishing national sovereignty

But stage Red life meaning and sense of purpose is gained by ever expanding and conquering, what would make extremists groups like hamas, Hezbollah and the like act the way they act even without any oppression or injustices, but just from the fact that an unwanted stranger is stuck between them.

Edited October 4 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

extremists groups like hamas, Hezbollah and the like act the way they act even without any oppression or injustices

Not necessarily. Pleny of Arab states are not out to conquer anyone.

You can't just assume the worst about Palestinians.

[Inliytened1]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

 

The problem is that in the West, terrorism has become a Western propaganda term which means "unjustified violence", but of course this is a deeply biased and ethnocentic definiton because terrorism has always been done as a means towards a greater good, like fighting unjust oppressors and establishing national sovereignty. The problem with the West's framing of terrorism is that terrorism IS justified in the minds of those who do it. The West is shocked to learn this fact. But that's only because the West has been so self-absorbed as to not care would the needs of those it oppresses.

 

Ok so we both then know what the true definiton of terrorism always has been.  Your idea of how the West holds Terrorism can also be said to be subjective   Terrorism is justified in the minds that do it but remember this fails to take into consideration that some people are just plain bad or deluded..  So they might not always do things for the greater good.  Take Hitler.   Germany was wronged yes but he had a greed for power that was unbinding.  He wanted complete control of the world and his own Master race in charge.   This is sick.  It's not for the greater good.

And yes as nuts as 911 was it was done by the minds who did it for their own greater good.    However there was a level of delusion here because such acts only inflicted pain it didn't help a political cause.

Edited October 4 by Inliytened1

[Nivsch]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Not necessarily. Pleny of Arab states are not out to conquer anyone.

Because they are already Blue+

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You can't just assume the worst about Palestinians.

Not about Palestinians but about the Right wing of them and the extremists.

[Karmadhi]

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't work because the major terrorist Arab leaders are doing their acts in order to help Palestine gain statehood.

Are you okay with 9/11 being considered a thing they did to acheive a higher goal?

No.

The problem is that in the West, terrorism has become a Western propaganda term which means "unjustified violence", but of course this is a deeply biased and ethnocentic definiton because terrorism has always been done as a means towards a greater good, like fighting unjust oppressors and establishing national sovereignty. The problem with the West's framing of terrorism is that terrorism IS justified in the minds of those who do it. The West is shocked to learn this fact. But that's only because the West has been so self-absorbed as to not care would the needs of those it oppresses.

The game here is to oppress the hell out of the 3rd world and ignore their feelings until they finally lash out in anger, then slap the terrorist label on them so that all of their greivances can be ignored.

It's an abuse and gaslight strategy. Very psychologically devious.

Leo do you plan to do a video on "What is terrorism" where you explain this at length and give concrete examples.

Perhaps it can be released on your blog if you are scared to put it on Youtube.

I think it would hopefully change the attitude of many people on this forum among others that are not on this forum.

 

Edited October 4 by Karmadhi

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Leo do you plan to do a video on "What is terrorism" where you explain this at length and give concrete examples.

 

That would make a great video but I see flaws in his episode on how Everything is good and there is no evil because that fails to consider certain possibilities regarding what is in the mind of the person doing the acts.  Not that evil exists or for that matter good but delusion exists and is not accounted for 

Edited October 4 by Inliytened1

[Leo Gura]

29 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Ok so we both then know what the true definiton of terrorism always has been.  Your idea of how the West holds Terrorism can also be said to be subjective   Terrorism is justified in the minds that do it but remember this fails to take into consideration that some people are just plain bad or deluded..  So they might not always do things for the greater good.  Take Hitler.   Germany was wronged yes but he had a greed for power that was unbinding.  He wanted complete control of the world and his own Master race in charge.   This is sick.  It's not for the greater good.

Good is a relative thing.

Some might say that stopping abuse of Palestinians is for the greater good.

The Palestinians are not Hitler. They have no plans of global domination, nor any capacity to do it even if they wanted. They are not even capable of conquering the Middle East.

Edited October 4 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Leo do you plan to do a video on "What is terrorism" where you explain this at length and give concrete examples.

I wanted to, but I don't want to cause outrage and get smeared.

Edited October 4 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I wanted to, but I don't want to cause outrage.

Can't be worse than being on the solipsist list

 

[Inliytened1]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Good is a relative thing.

Some might say that stopping abuse of Palestinians is for the greater good.

 

That can also be flipped around to saying Israel's efforts are for the greater good as well.   Getting into relative and absolutes now..so..yeah relatively speaking who's right?  The horrors are terrible but in the end we know what it comes down to.  Your favorite topic.

Survival. 

Edited October 4 by Inliytened1

[zazen]

On 21/09/2024 at 9:29 AM, zazen said:

Interesting video:

A lot of Americans like to hail the constitution as an inked embodiment of their progress - they assume a purity of purpose that never existed in the founding of that document. The initial Constitution didn’t extend voting rights to non-whites, women or non-landowners - it was for white male landowners (the wealthy elite). As voting rights expanded, the value of voting contracted as elites consolidated and entrenched themselves in the state apparatus, what often gets called ‘the establishment’ or ‘deep state’. That’s why critics of democracy including Westerners themselves feel disillusioned and often say democracy is more an illusion than a reality - because special interests (elites) still control things just as before.

As Leo said, ideals (of democracy justice etc) take time to materialise. I’ll add, that vested interests also use those ideals as a cloak of rhetoric to cover up underlying power dynamics, where that power lies, and who it serves. Similarly, the idea or ideal of a chosen people gave moral cover to European settlers in the new Americas and set the tone for justifying their “manifest density” - that they are divinely ordained to expand and claim land. This is where Israel and America are similar, except that America has fulfilled its manifestation (domestically) and Israel hasn’t - though this same attitude still causes America to seek and maintain global hegemony which is why critics claim America or ‘the West’ hasn’t evolved from its colonial days.

Early European settlers were heavily influenced by the Bible as it was the most widely read book at that time. This is why in America places have Biblically referenced names like Salem, Jericho, Bethlehem, Hebron and Zion. Thomas Jefferson who is considered a man of Enlightenment said the following: “The acquisition of the country from the Indians is to be carried on by the extension of our settlements..by driving them back within narrower limits.” Sounds similar to what’s coming out of Israel today.

 

The point of sharing Ben Gurion’s words a few pages back was to highlight at least a inkling of acknowledgment on his part of who is the aggressor and instigator of injustice in the Palestine issue - though he justified it through Zionist logic.

Most countries, if not all, are founded on violence. The difference as I’ve emboldened in the post above is that Israel hasn’t finished finding itself in the context of what it claims to be their homeland.

Across the world nations have resolved their territorial disputes by integrating indigenous or external groups as citizens, rather than excluding them in an apartheid-like system or leaving them in a state of limbo for decades into the modern age. Ironically, it’s the natives who are oppressed into a purgatory realm of statelessness who are called ‘backward’.

Imagine if in America, Native Americans were not integrated into the country’s democracy but were sidelined instead. Then, when they demanded a state of their own due to being unwanted, they were denied even that possibility. When they resisted, they were labeled and gaslit as terrorists. If one can’t see the absurdity in this, they must be absurd themselves.

Edited October 4 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

That can also be flipped around to saying Israel's efforts are for the greater good as well.   Getting into relative and absolutes now..so..yeah relatively speaking who's right?  The horrors are terrible but in the end we know what it comes down to.  Your favorite topic.

Survival. 

My fave topic is truth.

If Zionists wanna use violence and do ethnic cleansing, that's fine, but don't obfuscate about it, with moral grandstanding. The issue is that Zionists refuse to admit the relativity of the issue, they claim moral absolutes and high ground for themselves, and do the crocodile tears as soon as they get a taste of their own medicine.

If you wanna plead survival, fine. Then Oct 7th was also survival. And so was Hitler.

The problem is this: survival for me but not for thee.

My function here is to point out such biases.

Edited October 4 by Leo Gura