Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Minini said:

I understand this is possibly your approach to relativize conflicts and prevent judgment and radicalization, but honestly though how could 'sloppy bombing' be anything other an a clear intention of mass destruction?  It doesn't matter if they say they only intend to kill Hamas, we live in a physical world where indiscriminate bombing will surely result in mass deaths that could lead up to genocide if not stopped. 

I don't dispute intent for mass destruction and some degree of ethinc cleansing.

But also, it is a war. And war is destructive. Why did Hamas commit an act of war? That's on them. You can't commit an act of war and then act surprised that a war started.

Edited September 7 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

 

Edited September 7 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

And war is destructive.

How come the war in Ukraine is so much more restrained and soft compared to Gaza?

Civilian casualties in proportion of the population are like 40 times less.

And Russia is not even a soft country when it comes to war, they are quite brutal.

In Gaza the rate of killing at points was the highest since the Rwandan genocide.

When your reference is a genocide, it is not just a war.

I would call it a semi genocide. But if you want to use the word "war", then it is a war on women on children since they are the main people that are dying. They have probability had a worse civilian to soldier ratio than Hamas did.

If you think it is a standard war, what sources are you using that make you think that? Because every UN and Human rights agency have called it more than a standard war.

Not to mention all the doctors that went there and said it was anything they had seen in other conflicts.

Ideally in discussions regarding this matter it is good to send sources from trustworthy places, otherwise it is just empty speculation and propaganda parroting.

I feel like you are being quite soft on how Israel is doing this war and mostly focus on their propaganda and other stuff when it comes to criticizing which is obviously problematic but a small fish in comparison.

The whole outrage regarding Israel (including top world leaders), came from how they are doing this war (and previous wars for that matter), not because they buy off some medias here and there and flood the internet with bots.

Just because they have not nuked gaza (but have dropped the equivalence of multiple atomic bombs of it in explosives),  does not mean that they cannot do crimes against humanity in other ways.

UN official deems kill rates in Gaza highest in the world since Rwandan genocide – Middle East Monitor

 

Edited September 7 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

How come the war in Ukraine is so much more restrained and soft compared to Gaza?

1) Due to the relative power difference between Russia/Ukraine vs Israel/Gaza.

2) Gaza is a tiny dense city, not an entire country. This is a war against terrorists more than it is a proper war against a nation-state.

3) There is little reason for Russia to bomb civilian buildings in Ukraine, whereas in Gaza there's almost no other option.

These two conflicts are just not very analogous.

Edited September 7 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Due to the relative power difference between Russia/Ukraine vs Israel/Gaza.

 

There was also a huge power difference between NATO and Serbia during the Kosovo war.

Also between US and Iraq.

Yet you had no near close these numbers. Iraq may have resulted in a lot of deaths but those came after the war was initially over. The actual invasion costed around 4000 civilians (not small but no near the 30.000 or so we have in Gaza). NATO meanwhile in Serbia killed around 500 civilians in their bombing campaign. Israel can show restraint, just because they "can" does not mean they have to.

 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is a war against terrorists more than it is a proper war against a nation-state.

Firstly, Russia considers Ukraine basically part of Russia, they do not respect Ukraine sovereignty. They also see Ukraine government and army as basically Neo Nazis, so to them they are not much different Hamas is to Israel. 

Secondly, when the majority of people you have killed are women, childreen, elderly, then you cannot call it a war on terrorists anymore. It is a war on civilians.

 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Gaza is a tiny dense city, not an entire country

That is true. But it also means that the pool of people you can kill is way larger. Severity is also measured as % of population killed where in Gaza it is much higher than Ukraine.

 

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

whereas in Gaza there's almost no other option

How come then there is case in the international court saying there is plausability that genocide has being going on in Gaza.

How come the ICC wanted to issue an arrest warrant against Bibi and the Defense Minister of Israel accusing them of war crimes, intentional bombing of civilians, crimes against humanity, starvation as method of war etc (decision still not finalized).

How come every human rights organization is calling out what Israel is doing as cruel and unecessary.

If Israel had no other way to conduct this war than how it is conducting it, none of these issues would have been raised.

So they are all wrong?

Edited September 7 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

33 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

So they are all wrong?

I don't have enough information to know.

Trying to compare Gaza to other wars is just not gonna produce good sensemaking.

Edited September 7 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

But also, it is a war. And war is destructive. Why did Hamas commit an act of war? That's on them. You can't commit an act of war and then act surprised that a war started.

very logical indeed. what's also logical is that you can't abuse people for too long and expect no bites in return. 

Also, even wars have rules according to the international law. So, it's not really a war that fits the modern age, it's more like a savage war or a mass destruction campaign only the tools are the sophisticated thing. 

Edited September 7 by Minini

[Raze]

This talk has a good breakdown on Gaza 

 

[Nivsch]

📊 52% according to i24 channel poll.

Edited September 7 by Nivsch

[numbersinarow]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

There was also a huge power difference between NATO and Serbia during the Kosovo war.

Also between US and Iraq.

Yet you had no near close these numbers. Iraq may have resulted in a lot of deaths but those came after the war was initially over. The actual invasion costed around 4000 civilians (not small but no near the 30.000 or so we have in Gaza). NATO meanwhile in Serbia killed around 500 civilians in their bombing campaign. Israel can show restraint, just because they "can" does not mean they have to.

That's 500 purposely killed civilians.

Which is way worse than anything Israel has done.

NATO's ethnic cleansing campaign in 1995 is acknowledged as objectively being ethnic cleansing by wikipedia, but the war against Hamas isn't.

Which one has 100000x the media attention while being demonized by cynical leftists?

The fact that you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that Hamas is trying to make Israel look bad is incredible. There is nobody sane trying to say Hamas isn't pushing the buttons of the mainstream and UN because they know they are racist against jews, of course that is the case. Terrorists ALWAYS think about the terror part AKA the psychological impact part.

2 hours ago, Minini said:

Also, even wars have rules according to the international law.

Let me guess, OTHER PEOPLE are stage blue fundamentalists? 

[Nivsch]

41 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

The fact that you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that Hamas is trying to make Israel look bad is incredible.

What an organization who knows it is inferior in physical power will do to survive?

It will invest 15 years to fortify itself with tunnels and will develop all the psychological protective strategies it can. This is enough time to become a chess master.

Anyone who think hamas is stupid won't be able to see the reality of this war clearly enough.

Edited September 7 by Nivsch

[oldhandle]

Just how much money does Israel spend on propaganda? Israelis killed an American woman who was peacefully protesting in Israel: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c0l8rgz7rn4o

And you can't even find this event at all on https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews - the only discourse allowed there is pro-Israel. 

I think this is pretty fucking alarming and telling, though I expect, especially, the pro-Israel users in this thread to completely skip my post as if they didn't read a letter of it.

Just how much money do you have to spend to get the main world news subreddit to completely hide anything bad about Israel and completely promote anything bad about Palestine?

[oldhandle]

On this thread about Hamas:

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/1fary3f/hamas_piles_on_new_demands_for_ceasefire_deal/?sort=controversial

The original poster wrote: "

Israel is the good guy. University cos play jihadists are moral imbeciles."

19 upvotes.

Wtf man, this shit is fake as fuck.

[Raze]

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

UN because they know they are racist against jews, of course that is the case. 

Let me guess, OTHER PEOPLE are stage blue fundamentalists? 

So are these people all stage blue fundamentalists who are racist against Jews?

 

Edited September 7 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't have enough information to know.

Me, Raze and others send here dozens of credible articles, testimonies etc to provide such information.

Lastly, would you say the UN is biased against Israel? I keep seeing this in forums, comments and even Israeli top politicans.

Edited September 7 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

That's 500 purposely killed civilians.

Which is way worse than anything Israel has done.

NATO's ethnic cleansing campaign in 1995 is acknowledged as objectively being ethnic cleansing by wikipedia, but the war against Hamas isn't.

Dude, I am talking about the bombing of Yugoslavia to stop the Kosovo genocide unfolding. They had already killed over 9000 civilians in Kosovo and raped 20.000 women. Kicked out 750.000 of them to Albania. It was pure ethnic cleansing which could have led to a full on genocide if NATO had not intervened. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_War

Lastly, to bring up the current war in Gaza, it is not a war against Hamas, it is a war against the ENTIRE Gazan population. 

 

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

Which one has 100000x the media attention while being demonized by cynical leftists?

 

Because when you have at its peak 250 children dying a day, a rate higher than that of Auschwitz concentration camp, then of course people will be angry about it. Especially when their phone is filled with videos or pictures of hurt or dead kids. People are sensitive when it comes to that. In Yugoslavia NATO barely killed any children. In Gaza it is close to 17.000 now.

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

The fact that you are completely unwilling to acknowledge that Hamas is trying to make Israel look bad is incredible.

That is true, but Israel is not an emotional child, it has responsibility to act professionally and maturely.

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

UN because they know they are racist against jews, of course that is the case

Please stop with this biased cringe. Nobody in the right mind would say such a thing.

It is hard for me to take you seriously anymore if you think that the UN is racist and biased against Isarel.

Edited September 7 by Karmadhi

[oldhandle]

As usual, buried completely in https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews and no one seems to care even though Israel killed freaking 6 UN workers, they really can just get away with anything, imagine the outrage if Palestine killed 6 UN workers, it would be top of every news website and would be used to justify more violence against them, but Israel does it and literally no one cares

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyn400rm68o

[El Zapato]

8 minutes ago, oldhandle said:

As usual, buried completely in https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews and no one seems to care even though Israel killed freaking 6 UN workers, they really can just get away with anything, imagine the outrage if Palestine killed 6 UN workers, it would be top of every news website and would be used to justify more violence against them, but Israel does it and literally no one cares

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clyn400rm68o

Good intentions pave the road to hell...or sumpin' like that. Israel was born with good but faulty intentions but as usual, humans being humans they did not or could not foresee that Israel would grow to be the very thing that they were saved from.  Humanity is ugly, very ugly.

[Raze]

https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2024/08/31/g-s1-20287/children-in-gaza-who-need-medical-care-are-not-being-allowed-to-evacuate-say-aid-groups
 

Quote

Children in Gaza who need medical care are not being allowed to evacuate, say aid groups

 

[Nivsch]

Edited September 15 by Nivsch