Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Leo Gura If the burglary is so irrationally successful maybe it isn't actually a burglary?

I guess you consider FoxNews just truth, eh? How could it be propaganda if it's so successful.

Edited September 6 by Leo Gura

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I guess you consider FoxNews just truth, eh? How could it be propaganda if it's so successful.

No, I meant to AIPAC and Jews lobbing. I mean, I think lobby cannot exist so successfully in a vaccum, but only on the ground of pre existing supportive relationships to begin with. This is more of a chicken and egg thing.

See I am sure that Israeli speakers like Yosef Hadad and the like can be very shallow in their explanations. But sometimes when you deal with such a manipulative in enormous scale (again, holds solid truths but in the periphery) propaganda, sometimes you have to be sharp to the opposite direction even if it comes at the expense of the bigger more nuanced picture.

But propaganda that has to arrive a message within 5 minutes and aimed to masses, cannot enter to higher discussion, and anyway it isn't a source we would look for for a serious nuanced investigation.

Edited September 6 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I guess you consider FoxNews just truth, eh? How could it be propaganda if it's so successful.

I find it quite hard to understand where you stand on this conflict Leo.

On one side you seem to be very critical of Israel, calling them out countless times and discussing it with the Israelis here.

On the other side you seem to brush off their action and calling it "some sloppy bombing or some war crimes here and there".

 

[Raze]

 

 

 

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

No, I meant to AIPAC and Jews lobbing. I mean, I think lobby cannot exist so successfully in a vaccum, but only on the ground of pre existing supportive relationships to begin with. This is more of a chicken and egg thing.

See I am sure that Israeli speakers like Yosef Hadad and the like can be very shallow in their explanations. But sometimes when you deal with such a manipulative in enormous scale (again, holds solid truths but in the periphery) propaganda, sometimes you have to be sharp to the opposite direction even if it comes at the expense of the bigger more nuanced picture.

But propaganda that has to arrive a message within 5 minutes and aimed to masses, cannot enter to higher discussion, and anyway it isn't a source we would look for for a serious nuanced investigation.

There is an insane amount of propaganda from the Palestinian side as well Nivsch.

The thing that trumps all is direct footage.

So when Israel bombs a school and you see footage of countless dead or maimed children, that is what gets people so angry and frustrated.

I can assure you, if Gaza did not have this insane number of injured/dead children footage running amok then the protests would have been 10x lower.

People tend to be very very sensitive when it comes to children compared to grown men.

The number of dead kids I have seen personally (and tons of my friends) has made us basically immune to it.

And we are chilling in other side of the world.

Imagine being there.

I have seen many interviews of foreign doctors that went to Gaza and then they did interviews explaining what they say.

It is absolutely horrific to listen to them.

And these are usually foreigners from US/UK etc, so I do trust their testimonies.

Piers Morgan invited 2 times them.

Regarding medias, BBC to me (outside some questionable headlines) tend to be relatively objective.

Guardian less so.

CNN even less so.

Fox News is pure bullshit.

So if you follow Western news regarding the war, use BBC  (my advice).

Watch these with an open mind.

 

Edited September 6 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

📊 At least HALF of Israelis support a deal to withdrawal from philadelphia axis in exchange for the return of the hostages.

Edited September 6 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

52 minutes ago, Raze said:

 

 

 

Some Jews and Israelis have lost the plot and it is sad to see. 

[Nivsch]

31 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Some Jews and Israelis have lost the plot and it is sad to see. 

There is a movement inside Israel of 44K of facebook followers to split Israel to the new Israel (the liberal one) and Judea. From the extent that this country is divided I am not sure this is a bad idea.

Edited September 6 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

33 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There is a movement inside Israel of 44K of facebook followers to split Israel to the new Israel (the liberal one) and Judea. From the extent that this country is divided I am not sure this is a bad idea.

 

If that is the case, who will monitor and occupy the West Bank?

Also, who will be the "ally" of the West.

Judea to me seems almost a fanatical religious state, not much different from Iran.

The liberal Israel I think would get FAR less hate from the rest of the world if it happens.

I think most of the hate and criticism comes from the Judea side.

Edited September 6 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Not even close.

Irsaeli propaganda and lobbying is 100x more influential in America.

US media is overwhelming pro-Israeli. Israel is literally paying off journalists and influencers and recuriting them with Mossad.

The only influence I see from the other side is Aljazeera, which has high quality reporting on the issue.

Israeli propaganda punches above its weight class given the number of Jews - but is outdated, misdirected and easy to spot.

Palestinian / Qatari propaganda is more well obfuscated, having aligned themselves with academics and the funding of universities. Its a very natural friendship, where western academics who are already experts in white colonialism, systemic racism, oppressor vs oppressed narratives take this conflict and pigeonhole it. Where this framing can be somewhat useful in understanding, they've run wild with extremist interpretations that rationalize terrorist attacks, blame Israel 100% for everything, use context selectively for Palestinians but not Jews, rewrite basic history related to two state negotiations, etc. In the long run, the Qataris have bet on the right horse, as their propaganda targets the youth and next generations. Israeli propaganda targets the old. These two schools don't really clash, as there's no university where these ideas are tackled from a non emotional lens. At these universities where Jews have been labeled as white oppressors, there's not much constructive dialogue which can happen. 

Jews also have influence in universities, but its mostly in the form of anti-semitism watch dogs. While there's tons of anti-semitism on campuses, this can't be the only substantive push back, and Americans have mostly become desensitized to the term after its overuse. 

https://airmail.news/issues/2024-6-1/when-your-teacher-is-qatar

Quote

Qatar has emerged as the largest foreign donor to US universities, contributing $5.1bn since 1986, according to one study. Most of the donations were made in the past decade.

 

Edited September 6 by hundreth

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Judea to me seems almost a fanatical religious state, not much different from Iran

I think the average there will still be one SD stage above the Iranian regime, the extremists are between similar to IR and half stage above.

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Also, who will be the "ally" of the West

New Israel very easily will be that way.

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

The liberal Israel I think would get FAR less hate from the rest of the world if it happens.

I think most of the hate and criticism comes from the Judea side.

True

Edited September 6 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

17 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

I think the average there will still be one SD stage above the Iranian regime, the extremists are between similar to IR and half stage above.

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I saw a debate of Israelis where a lawyer (I think was lawyer) said that ANYTHING is legit to be done to enemies of Israel, including sticking a stick up their ass (sodomy). Basically saying torture and rape is fine. Then there were tons of people demonstrate and legit tried to break into a prison where the guy who did the act was being held. Then some people starting calling him a hero, invited him on a tv show where the dude took off his mask.

These people are borderline red to me.

A society that glorifies rape and torture is red to me.

I am not saying most Israel is like this, but these people exist.

What do you think about what I said?

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Yeah at the extreme end of the scale of our society (and I think every society) you will find red too.

Edited September 6 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

24 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Yeah at the extreme end of the scale of our society (and I think every society) you will find red too.

What proportion of Israelis society you think would call a soldier who is accused of raping a Palestinian prisoner as a "hero"?

 

[Nivsch]

12 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

What proportion of Israelis society you think would call a soldier who is accused of raping a Palestinian prisoner as a "hero"?

People here say nasty things about the terrorists and sometimes far right wingers I know in whatsapp groups say about palestinians but such an extreme position I think is more rare but not 0%.

Edited September 6 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I find it quite hard to understand where you stand on this conflict Leo.

Perfect!

[royce]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

New Israel very easily will be that way.

WTF is new israel , but i like that you ashamed of ( Now Israel ) there is some fucking progress 

 

there's no right or left in Israel towards the Palestinians 

All The chaos in the street because of the hostages no more 

They are a tribe 

Edited September 6 by royce

[royce]

an American woman was shot dead (with a single round to her head) by@IDF

 

forces in the WestBank  today. The killing took place during a protest.

The IDF says troops fired on someone throwing stones. 

https://x.com/mariresisting/status/1832014903579725841 

https://x.com/TranslatingPali/status/1832081685401231756

Edited September 6 by royce

[Minini]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Perfect!

I understand this is possibly your approach to relativize conflicts and prevent judgment and radicalization, but honestly though how could 'sloppy bombing' be anything other an a clear intention of mass destruction?  It doesn't matter if they say they only intend to kill Hamas, we live in a physical world where indiscriminate bombing will surely result in mass deaths that could lead up to genocide if not stopped. 

[Karmadhi]

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/9/6/uk-doctor-80-of-gaza-victims-i-treated-were

As I have said before, this is clearly a war on childreen, not Hamas.

Intention is irrelevant, what matters is results.

Edited September 7 by Karmadhi