Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

12 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

DF bombs civilians too, much more than hamas.

See, accept that both IDF and hamas do plenty of terrorism. Flying an F-35 with a sonic boom over your house while you sleep, is inducing terror in the populace. 

You are right that IDF terrorism is different in that they use AI and sophisticated tech to do terrorism.

It is clear as day that Israel is not just trying to wipe out Hamas but also do a huge collective punishment campaign on the entire Gaza population.

Mearsheimer said it best here.

If IDF would really want, the civilian death toll would be far lower and the destruction far less than it is. Not to mention the entire famine.

I struggle to understand how people on this forum including Leo sometimes can call it anything else than terrorization of an entire population and punishment.

"Just because they have not nuked Gaza" does not mean you cannot mass murder civilians in other ways.

 

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

To be honest Leo brought it up this time, not me.

If there is clear evidence then ok.

Still, I find the idea ridiculous to take land because it was yours 3000 years ago.

Or better said, I find it ridiculous to do that and then act like you are moral and stuff.

To justify it basically.

Just say "We need land so we took it, no choice". 

Then it would be your typical conquest which happened all the time in history.

Nothing new there.

 

I think it was a lot of things, not just we were here 3000 years ago.

Most of it is just historical context. Post WW2 Jews immigrated there en masse after being unwelcome in Europe (understatement.) 

The British happened to be in control of the area, the Jews who fought with the British made a deal with them, and then the UN followed suit. 

Would the same thing have happened today? No. Is it moral to continue expanding? I don't believe so. I think what already is in place is what is there and you can't go back now. Unfortunately the Palestinians got dealt a bad hand in all this, and to compound the issue they also played their hand badly. 

It's sad, but I'd rather focus on moving forward and finding a way to coexist.

[gettoefl]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

It is clear as day that Israel is not just trying to wipe out Hamas but also do a huge collective punishment campaign on the entire Gaza population.

Mearsheimer said it best here.

If IDF would really want, the civilian death toll would be far lower and the destruction far less than it is. Not to mention the entire famine.

I struggle to understand how people on this forum including Leo sometimes can call it anything else than terrorization of an entire population and punishment.

"Just because they have not nuked Gaza" does not mean you cannot mass murder civilians in other ways.

 

Israel believes in and carries out disproportionality: if you kill one of mine, I will kill 10 of yours

It is hard to argue that is a legitimate military response although some will say, those are the a priori rules when you oppose Israel

[Karmadhi]

27 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

Israel believes in and carries out disproportionality: if you kill one of mine, I will kill 10 of yours

It is hard to argue that is a legitimate military response although some will say, those are the a priori rules when you oppose Israel

Israel now has killed around 40 times more civilians than Hamas did.

If it was 10 it would not be as bad.

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

39 minutes ago, hundreth said:

think it was a lot of things, not just we were here 3000 years ago.

Most of it is just historical context. Post WW2 Jews immigrated there en masse after being unwelcome in Europe (understatement.) 

The British happened to be in control of the area, the Jews who fought with the British made a deal with them, and then the UN followed suit. 

And how exactly were the actual people LIVING there consulted about this?

You mentioned every actor except those who would actually have to share that space and be governed by another.

That is my fundamental issue here.

Way I see this is that Palestinians were forced to endure the consequences of European evil towards Jews.

Why didnt they make Bavaria a Jewish state? That would be fitting. Germany had lost the war and was the primary responsible for the Holocaust.

Why involve people that had nothing to do with any of this.

39 minutes ago, hundreth said:

think what already is in place is what is there and you can't go back now

I agree with you on this, personally I am all for negotiations and swallow your pride. But Israel seems to keep doing illegal expansions so it is not just the acceptance of the status quo. That status quo moves every year.

39 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Unfortunately the Palestinians got dealt a bad hand in all this, and to compound the issue they also played their hand badly. 

Totally agreed. I feel the same way about Ukraine and the war going on there.

39 minutes ago, hundreth said:

It's sad, but I'd rather focus on moving forward and finding a way to coexist.

I saw Gazans tried to do a peaceful protest some years ago and they were massacred.

If they do relatively peaceful protest they get killed (46 childreen killed too).

If they do violence and terrorism they get genocied.

What can they do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests

They tried doing it peacefully and look what happened.

When I read this then the October attack made more sense since they tried a peaceful route and failed badly.

This is how a dictatorship treats massive protests, not a "democracy".

"Five former IDF snipers, assisted by Breaking the Silence, published a letter expressing "shame and sorrow" for the killings and stating, "instructing snipers to shoot to kill unarmed demonstrators who pose no danger to human life is another product of the occupation and military rule over millions of Palestinian people, as well as of our country's callous leadership, and derailed moral path".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre#Death_toll

 

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

On 2.9.2024 at 8:33 PM, Leo Gura said:

It's nice to see that not all Israelis support this war.

It is true that at the beginning after the trauma the war was in a sort of consensus, but from couple of months ago it has started, at least the current phase of the war that endangers the hostages, to be controversial and Israel is very splitted right now.

Edited September 3 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

19 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

In the West Bank where there is no Hamas

hamas is very active in the west bank. In fact most of the suicide bombing in the 90s and early 00s came from there, what forced Israel to enter this area much deeper, actually until this day.

Edited September 3 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

7 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

hamas is very active in the west bank. In fact most of the suicide bombing in the 90s and early 00s came from there, what forced Israel to enter this area much deeper, actually until this day.

I thought it was PLO that used to be more violent then calmed down. But from what I saw Hamas is not strong there, it is mostly PLO that governs it.

But I do not know much about that part so cannot say much.

By the way, I saw this video about the hostage deal.

Would love your thoughts.

He is against a hostage deal it seems but also extremely pro Israel and pro Zionist.

Interesting take.

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Israel has historically released hundreds and sometimes thousands of prisoners (among them many terrorists) for only handful Israelis in return for example when Gilad Shalit was the only one who was freed in 2011 for 1027 Palestinian prisoners.

The point of this guy is understandable but right now this is really Bibi who is part of the problem that makes decisions from political survival considerations.

And above that, Israel is very polarized in its values systems especially in the last decade.

Edited September 3 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

And how exactly were the actual people LIVING there consulted about this?

You mentioned every actor except those who would actually have to share that space and be governed by another.

That is my fundamental issue here.

Way I see this is that Palestinians were forced to endure the consequences of European evil towards Jews.

Why didnt they make Bavaria a Jewish state? That would be fitting. Germany had lost the war and was the primary responsible for the Holocaust.

Why involve people that had nothing to do with any of this.

I agree with you on this, personally I am all for negotiations and swallow your pride. But Israel seems to keep doing illegal expansions so it is not just the acceptance of the status quo. That status quo moves every year.

There's many interpretations of what happened, but at the same time the formation of Israel is so over scrutinized on a level no other nation is. This constant attempt to delegitimatize Israel only fuels the fires and leads to more unrest. People become resentful, call Israelis western names like colonizers, etc... and then the Palestinians are emboldened to shoot for full river to the sea. Sure, the perspective of the Palestinians and the Nakba was underrepresented for some time. At this point, this constant history on trial really serves no purpose.

Quote

I saw Gazans tried to do a peaceful protest some years ago and they were massacred.

If they do relatively peaceful protest they get killed (46 childreen killed too).

If they do violence and terrorism they get genocied.

What can they do?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–2019_Gaza_border_protests

They tried doing it peacefully and look what happened.

When I read this then the October attack made more sense since they tried a peaceful route and failed badly.

This is how a dictatorship treats massive protests, not a "democracy".

"Five former IDF snipers, assisted by Breaking the Silence, published a letter expressing "shame and sorrow" for the killings and stating, "instructing snipers to shoot to kill unarmed demonstrators who pose no danger to human life is another product of the occupation and military rule over millions of Palestinian people, as well as of our country's callous leadership, and derailed moral path".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests_and_massacre#Death_toll

I've said several times what I think would drive progress. From Israel's side, moving away from the Likud and going back to more moderate times. Israel should stop expanding while focusing more on defending their civilians. 

Palestinians and Gaza especially should take the aid money and constructively use them to the benefit of their people. They should elect new leaders who are focused on progress and integration. Good leadership would unite both Gaza and the West Bank, then there would be an actual negotiation partner, and the priority of Palestinian society will shift from Israel hate towards life. They will actually have something to lose.

Protesting and violence isn't going to achieve anything. Each time they do a terrorist attack, Israel retaliates and does irreversible damage to the Palestinian cause. They aren't helping themselves.

[Leo Gura]

It's hard to compare Russia and Israel without direct experience of their operations. Reading news reports is just too far removed, leaving lots of speculation.

I imagine that things are much uglier than we know, see, or hear.

[oldhandle]

I just have a question. Is there any reason every single post regarding Israel and Palestine in https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews is 100% pro-Israel? It seems really suspicious when every other online space is quite the contrary.  

[Leo Gura]

Israel has a huge propaganda budget.

I bet they have bot farms to shape social media opinions.

Edited September 3 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to compare Russia and Israel without direct experience of their operations. Reading news reports is just too far removed, leaving lots of speculation.

You can see death toll, civilian to soldier death toll, war crimes being done, destruction etc.

A brutal military makes itself obvious by the results.

War is pragmatic and result oriented.

These days you can just open your phone and see since people stuck in war zones film what goes on.

I saw the other day a  Gazan child whose half head was blown off by a bullet, that is close to direct experience.

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I bet they have bot farms to shape social media opinions.

So does Russia to be honest. They are very crafty in justifying their invasion of Ukraine and blaming all of it on the West.

I feel like even serious scholars like Jeffery Sachs have been influenced by it.

I have followed both conflicts and to me Russia excels in doing propaganda via online sources like Tik Tok, Instagram and Telegram. That is their thing.

Israel excels in doing propaganda by using the medias like Fox News, CNN and some talk show hosts.

 

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I saw the other day a  Gazan child whose half head was blown off by a bullet, that is close to direct experience.

Of course that happens. But you'd need to see the full context of that before judging it.

That Gazan child could have been living next to a combatant with a rocket launcher.

Edited September 3 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I imagine that things are much uglier than we know, see, or hear.

You mean in general or about specific actor?

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course that happens. But you'd need to see the full context of that before judging it.

That Gazan child could have been living next to a combatant.

From foreign doctors testimonies that were in Gazans hospitals, most of those shots were sniper shots with clear aim at childreen.

Not mistakes.

 

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Karmadhi said:

You mean in general or about specific actor?

I mean how Russia and IDF behave in the shadows.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

From foreign doctors testimonies that were in Gazans hospitals, most of those shots were sniper shots with clear aim at childreen.

Not mistakes.

From what I understand IDF will shoot any male within certain zones.

Of course they abuse that.

[Karmadhi]

8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I mean how Russia and IDF behave in the shadows.

Fair.

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

From what I understand IDF will shoot any male within certain zones.

Of course they abuse that.

And how exactly does shooting a 5 year old child aid the war effort?

A precise sniper shot which actually is perfectly aimed according to doctor testimonies.

I fail to understand how that aids a military.

It is not 1 case where a child was perceived to be potentially dangerous or human errors which can indeed happen in a war.

It is a whole policy with dozens of recorded cases.

https://www.facebook.com/IrelandPSC/videos/devastating-testimony-from-a-surgeon-who-was-in-gaza-toddlers-shot-by-israeli-sn/473472438661359/

very informative video from a foreign doctor who was there being interviewed.

 

 

Edited September 3 by Karmadhi