Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

Tel aviv main road is totally blocked. Right now from my car. Protest on the road between the cars too. I wanted to participate too but couldn't.

Tomorrow a general strike in the economy in Israel. The reason is the murder of 6 hostages at the weekend when everyone know Bibi is one of the main obstacles to a deal.

And probably also a general feeling that this government do all the wrong things in inner and outer issues and ruin the country.

Edited September 1 by Nivsch

[gambler]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What percentage of DNA do modern Jews have with Biblical Jews?

Honest question. I don't know.

I'll begin with Middle Eastern Jews. Apart from Lebanese, Syrian, and Egyptian Jews, all other Middle Eastern Jews seemingly don't derive much ancestry from Biblical Jews. These groups are very similar to the indigenous populations of their native lands. This can be reconciled with the historical context that Judaism at one small point in time was proselytizing.

As for European Jews, exact biblical Jewish ancestry isn't detailed yet, so we'll focus on what the papers say instead.

One study put European Jews as 60% European & 40% middle eastern.
Another study put it as 60% Middle Eastern & 40% European.

However the study that put it as 60% Middle Eastern (https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.cell.2020.04.024) isn't discerning between middle eastern and southern European ancestry of 2000-1000 years ago, where those Southern European populations carry substantial middle eastern ancestry. This is why I prefer the estimate from Xue et al 2017 (60% European).

Apart from that, how much of it directly comes from the Biblical Jews versus the rest being admixture from other Middle Eastern tribes isn't known as of yet. All that's known is that a good part of their non-Southern European Middle Eastern ancestry (the 40% middle eastern estimate) should be related to biblical Jews.

Edited September 1 by gambler

[Raze]

It may be getting too big for Netanyahu to weather. 

But I don’t think he’s going to give in that easily. Keeping in mind if he loses power he may go to prison for unrelated charges.

I’m thinking his possible moves are 

- have a huge surge in Gaza to try and get Sinwar or save some hostages to counter this news with a major pr victory

- somehow provoke Iran or Hezbollah to carry out a major strike and go to war, then use that as an excuse to clamp down 

The problem with the former is he had to move IDF to clamp down on unrest in the West Bank, and the problem with the latter is Iran seems to be trying to pull back from a major war as it thinks they are in a better position waiting things out 

I’m actually surprised at the backlash to Netanyahu when it was Hamas who murdered the hostages in this case, the backlash actually seems greater than when it was hostages accidentally killed by IDF which I would assume made them look worse than when Hamas clearly did it. It seems they’re losing faith in a complete victory over Hamas.

Honestly I think the only way they could have gotten anything near that was a very small bombing campaign and a huge amounts of IDF sent to strafe all of Gaza so they could actually personally confront Hamas and get access to the hostages, but I guess they couldn’t do that because they’d lose too many and be too vulnerable in other areas because it would require putting so many soldiers at risk.

Israel desperately needs a peaceful solution fast, this whole thing has not made them look good PR wise, but crucially it made them look bad militarily, and extremists around the Middle East may start thinking they’ll have a military option and can outlast IDF if Hamas can.

Edited September 1 by Raze

[Raze]

One especially sad thing is many of the Oct 7 victims and hostages were themselves peace advocates

Edited September 1 by Raze

[royce]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What percentage of DNA do modern Jews have with Biblical Jews?

Honest question. I don't know.

Hey Leo, a while back you mentioned that some Hamas leaders are millionaires or billionaires. How did you find that out, and who exactly are the leaders of Hamas?

[Heaven]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Tel aviv main road is totally blocked. Right now from my car. Protest on the road between the cars too. I wanted to participate too but couldn't.

Tomorrow a general strike in the economy in Israel. The reason is the murder of 6 hostages at the weekend when everyone know Bibi is one of the main obstacles to a deal.

And probably also a general feeling that this government do all the wrong things in inner and outer issues and ruin the country.

A huge distrust emerged after the 7th October massacre. when the government couldn’t protect their people. Since then, momentum started of finding who was in fault but obviously the one to blame is Hamas but it’s easier to blame the government than going inside Gaza and do the job.

Unfortunately the enemy is cold hearted and has no values whatsoever. It’s a hard fight when everyone is expecting you to act in a compassionate manner. 

It’s a tough pillow to swallow but without an Israeli presence in Gaza it’s just a matter of time till the next massacre will occur.

[Heaven]

On 8/31/2024 at 0:35 AM, Leo Gura said:

You mean in biblical times?

But today's Jews are barely related to those people.

Hitler didn’t care nor the next antisemitic leader will care. I don’t really understand what you’re trying to achieve with this questions..

[Heaven]

Israel is in a day of mourning after 5 Israelis found dead in the Gaza’s tunnels.

The really sad thing is that they were murdered 2 days ago by Hamas after understanding that their spot was exposed. 
 

These young Israeli kids were celebrating in the Nova festival and survived underground for over 300 days in captivity just to be murdered in cold blood right before they were found.

 

[Raze]

 

[Karmadhi]

13 hours ago, Heaven said:

Hitler didn’t care nor the next antisemitic leader will care. I don’t really understand what you’re trying to achieve with this questions..

To show that Israeli claims to that land are not based on truth 

They could have made a Jewish state somewhere else where they would not get this backlash.

There were countless proposed places to build a Jewish state, and they chose the worst one.

That is the root cause of all this bullshit.

Edited September 2 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

To show that Israeli claims to that land are not based on truth 

They could have made a Jewish state somewhere else where they would not get this backlash.

There were countless proposed places to build a Jewish state, and they chose the worst one.

That is the root cause of all this bullshit.

Which claim isn't based on truth?

How much DNA should an exiled people have to their homeland for it to be truth that it is their homeland? 

And who is to say a different location wouldn't have had it's own set of issues? You could have been talking about a Ugandan Israeli genocide right now, so I never understood this line of argument.

[Leo Gura]

It's nice to see that not all Israelis support this war.

Edited September 2 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

20 hours ago, royce said:

Hey Leo, a while back you mentioned that some Hamas leaders are millionaires or billionaires. How did you find that out, and who exactly are the leaders of Hamas?

Should be easy to google that.

Leaders of any terrorist or para-military organization are gonna be pretty rich, this is normal. Bin Laden was a rich boy. Terrorist groups are like the Mafia. They do crime, drug trafficking, sex trafficking, extortion, theft, etc to make millions.

Edited September 2 by Leo Gura

[hundreth]

On 9/1/2024 at 10:58 AM, Raze said:

Israel never offered a acceptable two states solution, only two were decent but even the US negotiator admitted if he was Palestinian he wouldn’t accept the first one, and the second one was done by a PM who had no support and was going to prison and had little chance of being put into action.

they’ve also rejected far more offers from the Palestinian.

When push came to shove Arafat said no, every time. He didn't make any counter proposals. This is well documented. No matter what spin you try to put on it, Arafat is the main reason the two state negotiations failed.

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Hamas hasn’t attacked Jews outside of Palestine / Israel 

Hamas operates within Gaza and is confined there. Obviously they attack Israel. How are they going to attack Jews outside of Israel? This makes no sense. You make it seem like Hamas is using restraint lol.

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If that isn’t enough, by that logic there can’t be peace with Israel as the Likud charter has the same demand of never allowing Palestine to exist, but unlike Hamas they are actually doing it.

I don't know much about the Likud charter but if that's true then wage war against the Likud, not Israeli civilians. Notice how Israel explicitly states they are at war with Hamas. The name of this war is the Israel-Hamas war... not the Israel-Palestine war. 

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The aid money isn’t enough to counter the crushing blockade Israel keeps on Gaza, which they have admitted is purposefully designed to keep their economy on the brink.

The Palestinians path to peace does lie solely on Israel because they are the obstacle blocking a two states solution which the entire UN has agreed on. Israel is the one blockading Gazas, Israel is the one expanding settlements in the West Bank.

The UN votes on a two state solution every year, every year Israel and the US reject it. Palestine is destroyed every day, because they do not have rights nor safety every day they don’t have equal rights.

Hamas or groups like it are inevitable because when every peace proposal by Palestinians is rejected, their peaceful protests are responded to with extreme violence, and the occupation gets more and more crushing, some of them are going to resist with violence.

If the aid money isn't enough, then make a case for that by actually using it. This isn't about how much aid money, it's about the priorities of the region. There is no amount of aid money you can give Gaza to make their lives better. Literally name any amount of money, and it will be funneled into Hamas tunnels and rockets. 

The UN cannot change that simple reality. As I said earlier, Arafat is to blame for the two state negotiations breaking down. Hamas is not capable of negotiating a two state solution on behalf of the Palestinians. They don't have that authority. They don't represent the will of the Palestinians nor the Israelis. 

Edited September 2 by hundreth

[Bobby_2021]

@hundreth No one should have to negotiate with Israel or any other country for a two state solution. A state has the right to govern Itself.

When you block a legitimate government, barbarians like hamas will come to power.

[royce]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Should be easy to google that.

Leaders of any terrorist or para-military organization are gonna be pretty rich, this is normal. Bin Laden was a rich boy. Terrorist groups are like the Mafia. They do crime, drug trafficking, sex trafficking, extortion, theft, etc to make millions.

That's strange, Leo. You taught me not to be so sure of things, yet here you are, speaking with certainty about something you don't fully understand or have complete information on. You made assumptions based on the actions of terrorist and mafia groups, assuming that Hamas and Al-Qaeda engage in similar activities. It's funny because, first of all, Hamas is not a terrorist group; it's a military resistance against occupation. The activities you mentioned, like drug trafficking, sex trafficking, extortion, and theft, exist only in your mind or are influenced by the media. There are no leaders in Hamas seeking millions of dollars—you've missed the entire concept. Bin Laden was a rich man who gave up his wealth to live in the mountains. In these scenarios, it's not about money at all. Every leader in Hamas knows they will eventually be killed, and they are prepared for that—they actually desire it. So, don't apply the  usual materialistic perspective to them. And just to clarify, I'm not being biased here. 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, royce said:

That's strange, Leo. You taught me not to be so sure of things, yet here you are, speaking with certainty about something you don't fully understand or have complete information on. You made assumptions based on the actions of terrorist and mafia groups, assuming that Hamas and Al-Qaeda engage in similar activities.

You don't know what I know.

I wasn't assuming. If you did any decent amount of research into how such groups operate you would know that everything I said is uncontroversial and obvious.

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It's funny because, first of all, Hamas is not a terrorist group; it's a military resistance against occupation.

Don't BS us. Hamas are terrorists and proudly so.

Every terrorist group fancies itself as legit military resistance fighting for a noble cause and justice. Hamas are not unique in this.

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The activities you mentioned, like drug trafficking, sex trafficking, extortion, and theft, exist only in your mind or are influenced by the media.

Ha.

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There are no leaders in Hamas seeking millions of dollars—you've missed the entire concept. Bin Laden was a rich man who gave up his wealth to live in the mountains. In these scenarios, it's not about money at all. Every leader in Hamas knows they will eventually be killed, and they are prepared for that—they actually desire it. So, don't apply the  usual materialistic perspective to them. And just to clarify, I'm not being biased here. 

When I say they make millions that does not mean they do so for personal luxury per se (although of course they do), they do it first and foremsot because a terrorist organization requires tens of millions to sustain its members and activities. Terrorism/military is expensive.

No war can be won without moucho $$$$$.

Edited September 2 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Don't BS us. Hamas are terrorists and proudly so.

Every terrorist group fancies itself as legit military resistance fighting for a noble cause and justice. Hamas are not unique in this.

What would you qualify as a legitimate military resistance?

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

What would you qualify as a legitimate military resistance?

"Legitimate" is relative and socially constructed

I am not claiming that Hamas should not fight Israel. But Hamas does use terrorist tactics.

[Heaven]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"Legitimate" is relative and socially constructed

I am not claiming that Hamas should not fight Israel. But Hamas does use terrorist tactics.

They can continue to fight and resist but don’t expect Israel to behave differently..