Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

On 13/08/2024 at 2:09 AM, hundreth said:

Sure, it would be lovely to negotiate many things but there's no one to negotiate with at the moment. Even if you had the most progressive Israeli leader who wanted to grant statehood, there's no partner to discuss those parameters with. I think the third party idea is also the best one for how to proceed in Gaza, but not surprisingly no one wants to be there. Especially with a frothed up Hamas still running the show.

PLO seems moderate and willing to negotiate. They are not a terrorist organization and have ambassadors in Western countries.

On 13/08/2024 at 2:09 AM, hundreth said:

When Israelis protest accountability for those Israeli soldiers facing sexual abuse allegations, it's just as bad

How many Israeli soldiers have went to jail for war crimes against Palestinians? In this war there are hundreds of incidents of war crimes reported. Not to mention endless cases of torture and rape in Israeli prisons. Lets not act like Israel holds their soldiers any more accountable than Palestine does.

On 13/08/2024 at 2:09 AM, hundreth said:

In Israel's case, the continuation of the elimination of Hamas.

They also want to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Do not ignore that.

 

On 13/08/2024 at 11:32 AM, Nivsch said:

The tweets I add to here are always only from Israeli people, and translated.

Please stop sending that fundamentalist  warmongering genocidal monster called Naftali Bennet. All he does is make Israeli society look bad and fundamentalist.

Some of the other posts were quite nice, thank you for sharing them.

Edited August 14 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

16 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Please stop sending that fundamentalist  warmongering genocidal monster called Naftali Bennet. All he does is make Israeli society look bad and fundamentalist.

He became more moderate in last couple of years and though it is true he is quite right winger, I think he is far from Ben Gvir or Smotrich.

Anyway I will go towards your request 

Edited August 14 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

18 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Some of the other posts were quite nice, thank you for sharing them.

Thank you too.

Edited August 14 by Nivsch

[Vercingetorix]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-e7bgWtN1V/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Edited August 14 by Vercingetorix
Didn't manage to embed the link

[hundreth]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

PLO seems moderate and willing to negotiate. They are not a terrorist organization and have ambassadors in Western countries.

I just showed you how they weren't nearly as moderate as you think they are, but you ignored it.

[Raze]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000

free link: https://archive.is/knGgW

Quote

Israeli Army Uses Palestinian Civilians to Inspect Potentially Booby-trapped Tunnels in Gaza

Quote

"Our lives are more important than their lives," soldiers were told. The thinking is that it's better for the Israeli soldiers to remain alive and for the shawishim to be the ones blown up by an explosive device.

This description is one of many obtained by Haaretz, some from combat soldiers, others from commanders. The picture that emerges: In recent months, Israeli soldiers have used human shields in this way all over Gaza; even the chief of staff's office knows.

Soldiers choose Gazans for the missions and bring them to the brigades and battalions operating in the Strip. "There is pride in it," said a source who took part in some of the "locating" work.

"The senior ranks know about it," the source said. The army has played innocent despite footage shown on Al Jazeera about two months ago. Israeli soldiers can be seen dressing Palestinian detainees in uniforms and flak jackets, putting cameras on them and sending them into badly damaged houses and tunnel entrances with their hands bound by plastic ties.

Quote

There is also evidence that in some cases, minors or the elderly are used. "There were times when really old people were made to go into houses," one combat soldier said. If the Palestinian knows Hebrew, that's an advantage for the IDF; when Gazans are used in buildings and tunnels, they need to report to the forces outside.

Quote

One soldier said that when soldiers there expressed concerns, they were told that "the idea in general was that if the house was booby-trapped, or if there was an ambush or terrorists were in the area, they would kill [the Palestinian who was sent in] and not the soldiers. That was also the first time the commanders said the word 'shawish.'"

Quote

In one case, an Israeli soldier who took part in a raid on a building said one of the units had a Gazan dressed in white overalls. As part of an attempt to make armed Palestinians inside the building come out, the Gazan was sent there as a kind of mediator. But the attempt failed and the armed men shot the man.

 

@hundreth @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981

do you consider this a war crime?

Edited August 14 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

8 hours ago, Nivsch said:

He became more moderate in last couple of years and though it is true he is quite right winger, I think he is far from Ben Gvir or Smotrich.

Yes he is softer than those 2, but that is a very low bar to hold.

I have seen a lot of his interviews, both old and new and although he is very charismatic and has funny rants, I notice he is fundamentalist.

Basically, he was pro annexing West Bank and in interviews gave arguments related to the Bible. That is enough to be labelled a fundamentalist.

Also he keeps pushing for war against Iran and Hezbullah.

Which is why I called him warmonger.

 

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, hundreth said:

I just showed you how they weren't nearly as moderate as you think they are, but you ignored it.

Sorry but I did not understand it. You said they launch rockets towards Israel but as far as I know, it is Hamas that does so.

Could you please elaborate?

I doubt the UK would put an ambassador of the PLO in their country and recognize him if they were bad.

I do not see Hamas have this treatment for example.

[hundreth]

18 hours ago, Raze said:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000

free link: https://archive.is/knGgW

 

@hundreth @Nivsch @Gennadiy1981

do you consider this a war crime?

I guess. 

In the grand scheme of things, and given everything that's happened occurrences like this are going to be mostly ignored.

It is extremely fucked up. The difference between this and other war crimes is there is a self preservation aspect to it. It's easy to forget these soldiers are 18 year old kids, and in the grand scheme of things this war should be a meaningless part of their lives they move past. They aren't robots. They are going to do whatever it takes to stay alive. I think morally they have a responsibility not to - easier said than done. 

The war crimes that stand out are the ones where you harm civilians when there is no danger to your own life. You do it purely from a place of anger or hatred. 

I am surprised they haven't come up with a better way to handle situations like this though. 

[hundreth]

15 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Sorry but I did not understand it. You said they launch rockets towards Israel but as far as I know, it is Hamas that does so.

Could you please elaborate?

I doubt the UK would put an ambassador of the PLO in their country and recognize him if they were bad.

I do not see Hamas have this treatment for example.

I said they incentivize any Palestinian to murder Jews in cold blood because their families will be taken care of. A rogue actor can infiltrate an Israeli home, stab an entire family to death... and his family will receive paychecks forever. They will name a street after him and call him a martyr. In addition, yes they have their own military aspirations. The PLO is a wolf in sheep's clothing, albeit very thinly veiled. 

The logic about the UK ambassador part is self defeating, as you consider Israel bad while having representation everywhere.

[zazen]

34 minutes ago, hundreth said:

I said they incentivize any Palestinian to murder Jews in cold blood because their families will be taken care of. A rogue actor can infiltrate an Israeli home, stab an entire family to death... and his family will receive paychecks forever. They will name a street after him and call him a martyr. In addition, yes they have their own military aspirations. The PLO is a wolf in sheep's clothing, albeit very thinly veiled. 

Definitely negative incentive structure in place to continue the blood shed. On the macro, the occupation and periodic operations provide further incentive for bloodshed, as does this 10 month campaign of unleashed hell. Emotional fatigue has set in over Gaza despite atrocities occurring weekly but just this week two stories sparked outrage again. Four day old twins killed in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza while their father went to register their birth - on returning he found his twins, wife, and their grandmother dead. Another was a school bombing killing circa 100, whilst they were doing their morning prayers.

The UK felt the need to comment: 

When atrocities or the defense of them occur (ie protests shown above) we are told these are just the bad apples of Israeli society. When atrocities are committed by Palestinians we are told this is inherent in Arab society - the extremism and 'low development.'  Westerners exceptionalize their crimes (its a minority who commit them and not their society that gave birth to them), but generalize others crimes (its something inherent to 'their' culture.)

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

I guess. 

In the grand scheme of things, and given everything that's happened occurrences like this are going to be mostly ignored.

It is extremely fucked up. The difference between this and other war crimes is there is a self preservation aspect to it. It's easy to forget these soldiers are 18 year old kids, and in the grand scheme of things this war should be a meaningless part of their lives they move past. They aren't robots. They are going to do whatever it takes to stay alive. I think morally they have a responsibility not to - easier said than done. 

The war crimes that stand out are the ones where you harm civilians when there is no danger to your own life. You do it purely from a place of anger or hatred. 

 

So why is it different to you when Hamas embeds itself near civilians to try and stave off IDF strikes? 

they are also 18 year old kids who are doing anything they can stay alive. 

Edited August 15 by Raze

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

So why is it different to you when Hamas embeds itself near civilians to try and stave off IDF strikes?

That hamas knew their actions will bring IDF on them and still chose to do them.

Edited August 15 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

So why is it different to you when Hamas embeds itself near civilians to try and stave off IDF strikes? 

they are also 18 year old kids who are doing anything they can stay alive. 

In some ways it isn't. I've never been surprised that Hamas would situate themselves inside schools and hospitals as it makes sense when you're cornered. 

It's something brought up and discussed because it highlights the challenges when trying to fight a force like that. 

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

Definitely negative incentive structure in place to continue the blood shed. On the macro, the occupation and periodic operations provide further incentive for bloodshed, as does this 10 month campaign of unleashed hell. Emotional fatigue has set in over Gaza despite atrocities occurring weekly but just this week two stories sparked outrage again. Four day old twins killed in an Israeli airstrike in Gaza while their father went to register their birth - on returning he found his twins, wife, and their grandmother dead. Another was a school bombing killing circa 100, whilst they were doing their morning prayers.

The UK felt the need to comment: 

When atrocities or the defense of them occur (ie protests shown above) we are told these are just the bad apples of Israeli society. When atrocities are committed by Palestinians we are told this is inherent in Arab society - the extremism and 'low development.'  Westerners exceptionalize their crimes (its a minority who commit them and not their society that gave birth to them), but generalize others crimes (its something inherent to 'their' culture.)

 

Agreed re: macro factors.

What we've heard from the Israelis about this school bombing is that a large percentage of those eliminated were Hamas commanders and militants. I don't think anyone is hiding from this bombing, but instead Israel has pointed out why. Of course the numbers can be debated and it doesn't make it any less gruesome when bystanders are caught in the crossfire. 

I also don't think we're saying that these atrocities are inherent in Arab society. Moreso these atrocities are inherent where there is religious extremism. Palestinians have had much of this governing their society, and now we see as Israel adopts a more religious stance the atrocities ramp up as well.

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

I said they incentivize any Palestinian to murder Jews in cold blood because their families will be taken care of. A rogue actor can infiltrate an Israeli home, stab an entire family to death... and his family will receive paychecks forever. They will name a street after him and call him a martyr. In addition, yes they have their own military aspirations. The PLO is a wolf in sheep's clothing, albeit very thinly veiled. 

How many Israeli civilians have been killed in the West Bank by Palestinians in the last year?

6 hours ago, hundreth said:

The logic about the UK ambassador part is self defeating, as you consider Israel bad while having representation everywhere.

 Because Western governments have a huge pro Israeli bias, for eg, they host war criminal Bibi in Congress. They tolerate Israeli crimes 100x more than Palestinian crimes. So if they recognize a Palestinian actor, it means they are legit. 

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

What we've heard from the Israelis about this school bombing is that a large percentage of those eliminated were Hamas commanders and militants. I don't think anyone is hiding from this bombing, but instead Israel has pointed out why. Of course the numbers can be debated and it doesn't make it any less gruesome when bystanders are caught in the crossfire. 

Issue is that Israel has been caught lying countless times, so they are not trustworthy actors. Its like a girl that has endless cases of cheating, telling you "Babe, I did not cheat". You will give her an insane benefit of a doubt.

Hamas numbers have been verified in previous conflicts to be reasonable accurate according to the UN and other agencies, so I trust their numbers.

Also I saw a lot of footage of that attack to show kids and men with civilian clothes, so i doubt most were Hamas.

[zazen]

13 hours ago, hundreth said:

I also don't think we're saying that these atrocities are inherent in Arab society. Moreso these atrocities are inherent where there is religious extremism. Palestinians have had much of this governing their society, and now we see as Israel adopts a more religious stance the atrocities ramp up as well.

Yeah, I think extremism is something any human is capable of tapping into but that the majority don't. Religion and certain beliefs can definitely nurture extremism as can extreme situations. Extremism can also be non religious and motivated by ideology, politics or nationalism - but those are treated religiously.  Communist extremists come to mind, or Kamikaze fighters in Japan who would commit strategic suicide based on the cultural code of Bushido which emphasised honour, sacrifice and loyalty to the Emperor.

With Islam in particular, the idea of martyrdom is predisposed to extremism as it can be too easily distorted away from a defensive interpretation to a offensive interpretation. The situation doesn't help that the world recognises Palestinians to be occupied as this gives the extreme factions among them justification, they can simply say - ''Look, we aren't going to them (proactively, offensively), they have already come to us and we are occupied, so any action we take is defence (reactive) thus justified.'' 

This is where even if all our beliefs are constructs and subjective, subjectivity still has objective real world affects. Subjectivity in a sense literally matters because it can matter-ialise in reality. Racism is biological extremism, fanaticism is psychological extremism, totalitarianism is political extremism, fundamentalism is religious extremism. 

[Nivsch]

 

Edited August 16 by Nivsch

[Raze]

 

Edited August 16 by Raze

[Raze]

19 hours ago, hundreth said:

I also don't think we're saying that these atrocities are inherent in Arab society. Moreso these atrocities are inherent where there is religious extremism. Palestinians have had much of this governing their society, and now we see as Israel adopts a more religious stance the atrocities ramp up as well.

Not necessarily, these occurred under secular leadership

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantura_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ras_Sedr_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafr_Qasim_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_massacre

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/mar/23/israel-gaza-war-crimes-guardian

Edited August 16 by Raze