Israel / Palestine News Thread

[_Archangel_]

@Bobby_2021 @Karmadhi Guys, The West is superior to the Middle East in basically every metric of developement you can think of.
That shouldn't even be in question.  Israel is easely the most developed country in the area. If you think this is not the case, this is one of your core-biases in plain sight.


 

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

Guys, The West is superior to the Middle East in basically every metric of developement you can think of

Why are you quoting me on this? Bobby is the one not agreeing to that.

3 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

Israel is easely the most developed country in the area.

Depends what you mean developed. Economy, education, infrastructure, institutions etc it is indeed.

I was talking strictly moral development of the current far right Israeli politicans and far right religious extremists.

Do not make a strawman that we are saying "All Israelis are bad".

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Bobby_2021]

3 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Bobby_2021 @Karmadhi Guys, The West is superior to the Middle East in basically every metric of developement you can think of.
That shouldn't even be in question.  Israel is easely the most developed country in the area. If you think this is not the case, this is one of your core-biases in plain sight.

Do you seriously think I am dumb enough to argue that? 

The west's strategy of domination in covert and overt ways will result in stunted development and collective trauma of the places you are dominating, of which the middle east has been the victims. 

They are not going to get free healthcare while they are countering a US invasion lmao.  

[Bobby_2021]

Russia could probably send any European country back to stone age, if they want to while also accelerating the development of Russian society. 

Europe got more advanced than US or Russia because they did not spend as much on defense and choose to focus on free healthcare and stuff. That would make them easier targets too. If Russia acted like the US, then Europe would be pummeled by Russian intervention.

Geopolitics is a game of power and domination. Development is a rather inconsequential second order issue that is good enough for passive analysis.  The moves are made by people in power. 

[_Archangel_]

@Bobby_2021 @Karmadhi My bad then. I misunderstood.

[Nivsch]

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

And the case where 10 soldiers were detained they were now released and they roam free.

Yes there is some red to our society if going to the edge of the scale, sad and unfortunate but only a small minority of people capable to such actions by themselves, but it is true to any other western as well society, with many other kinds of crimes in any field of life.

Edited August 12 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

21 hours ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Israel has an authoritarian checkpoint and security system in the west bank. Palestinians do not have freedom of movement and often critical emergency services, such as hospitals, are separated by military checkpoints.

Why there are so much security restrictions?

Because of suicide bombers came out from there for 5 years in early 2000s in an Intifada that started right after Camp David negotiations, after a decade that was full of negotiations and even some signed agreements. It is worth to see the other half of the equation as well sometimes.

Edited August 12 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

On 8/10/2024 at 0:50 PM, zazen said:

 

While it's clear that both Israelis and Palestinians have made choices that have influenced their current situations, it's crucial to understand that Palestinians are living under conditions defined by occupation. This is not just a matter of opinion but a legal principle recognised globally.  The argument that Palestinians should prioritise peace and state building to gain statehood overlooks the fundamental fact that their rights as an occupied people are non-negotiable and not contingent upon proving their "worthiness" for statehood.

The West, and the international community have established legal norms precisely to protect those under occupation and to prevent this kind of conditional justice.  The hypotheticals being debated of Hamas wanting to genocide are contentious simply for being hypothetical and the fact that peoples objectives change when conditions change - that said, its wiser to listen to threats than not. And Hamas leaders have threatened not genocide out right but to get rid of Israel as a state - doing so would effectively result in the killing of countless civilians. During the era of Jim Crow laws in the American South - hypothetical cases were also made for fear of retribution and genocide. Events like Nat Turner rebellion (parallel to todays October 7th) fed into those fears. This rhetoric helped maintain such a unjust system of dehumanisation and lack of sovereignty.

Many Palestinians seek justice, freedom, and a state of their own which are simply aspirations that are enshrined in international law. If international law hadn't stated these are their rights maybe they would manage their expectations and not fight for those rights. But to have those rights be their in black and white then gas light them for fighting for them and framing them as barbaric terrorists is vile and ironically un-civilised. Civilisation isn't just about skyscrapers, gadgets and gizmos you have at home, its about how you interact with other societies beyond your borders - and often we see that Western nations interact with the global south in a win-lose extractive dynamic through a capitalist system they pioneered.

Blaming Palestinians for not having achieved peace while under occupation is akin to blaming a person for not thriving while being held captive. Their first and foremost priority, as it would be for any group in their position, is to achieve their fundamental rights, including the end of occupation. Only when these rights are secured can we realistically expect the conditions necessary for long-term peace and prosperity to take root. It's simply not up to Israel or the West to decide when Palestinians are "ready" for statehood. The international legal framework already recognises their rights - it's up to the global community to ensure those rights are respected and fulfilled.

This isn't about "worthiness." The Palestinians can literally do whatever they want and achieve statehood, EXCEPT for initiating attacks and firing rockets at Israel. 

That's how low the bar is set. 

International law and rights will always take a back seat when survival is at stake. As I said earlier, you have it backwards for this reason. 

The reason you need peace as a starting point is very simple. You need to know that the moment you grant what they wish for, they won't turn around and kill you. It's not about worthiness, it's about building trust.

Edited August 12 by hundreth

[Raze]

4 hours ago, hundreth said:

This isn't about "worthiness." The Palestinians can literally do whatever they want and achieve statehood, EXCEPT for initiating attacks and firing rockets at Israel. 

That's how low the bar is set. 

 

Not true, every year they propose a UN vote on a Palestinian state and the US and Israel block it. They’ve tried peaceful protest and Israel either reacted with violence or ignored them. 

[hundreth]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

Not true, every year they propose a UN vote on a Palestinian state and the US and Israel block it. They’ve tried peaceful protest and Israel either reacted with violence or ignored them. 

Obviously Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state shoved down their throats who is hostile and dangerous. There are other more selfish reasons from more fringe groups, but that is the main one. 

The pro Palestinian voices have their holy trinity of get out of jail cards:

- They did a "peaceful" protest at the border once, and violence ensued. Therefore being peaceful doesn't work.

- They updated their charter.

- Nat Turner

These arguments are tired and bad faith. 

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Obviously Israel doesn't want a Palestinian state shoved down their throats who is hostile and dangerous. There are other more selfish reasons from more fringe groups, but that is the main one. 

No it isn’t, it’s obvious to the entire world the violence they experience stems from the lack of Palestinians having a state, which is why the entire world wants a two state solution. A two state solution does not automatically mean giving up security.

The current situation points to it being the exact opposite, Palestinians not having a state is the danger to Israelis. Oct 7 happened because they had to move IDF from the Gaza border to the West Bank to protect settlers who need protection because they’re settling Palestinian lands and attacking them regularly.

Support for anti Israel militants primarily comes from how they treat the occupied Palestinians, if Palestinians had self determination, a lot of that support would dry up as it would be harder to justify.

the argument Palestinians can’t get a state because it’ll make Israel unsafe makes no sense when they are unsafe right now because the Palestinians don’t have a state. 

20 minutes ago, hundreth said:

The pro Palestinian voices have their holy trinity of get out of jail cards:

- They did a "peaceful" protest at the border once, and violence ensued. Therefore being peaceful doesn't work.

- They updated their charter.

- Nat Turner

These arguments are tired and bad faith. 

1) Why is “peaceful” in quotes? The protests were entirely peaceful in the beginning, the only IDF injury was a minor one, once the IDF started slaughtering them there was some violence but even then barely anything.

Multiple independent analysis have found they fired on peaceful protestors. 

 That wasn’t the only example, here is a list of the casualties on both sides during the first intifada mass protests, note the first year

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
 

Another example

It’s not tired or bad faith, it is true, Israel consistently reacts to peaceful resistance with violence.

If Israel is just waiting for Palestinians to drop the violence, why were they not pushing towards peace prior to Oct 7? The PLO had given up armed resistance years ago. Hamas had maintained a ceasefire to the point where Israel thought they didn’t even need to properly guard Gaza anymore. Where were the negotiations? Instead they just continued pressuring Palestinians with violence, Gaza was still blockaded and suffocating, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank prior to Oct 7. They were pushing Palestinians against a wall and giving them no way out as always.

2) the charter never meant anything, it was written by like twelve fundamentalists who were under siege, of course they would write extreme crazy shit. The Israel side is the one that constantly brings the charter up, but when it gets changed rather than being glad things moved in a good direction you just insist it doesn’t matter for some reason.

What is more relevant than the charter is Hamas has offered cease fires multiple times and been rejected by Israel.

What is even more relevant is the charter of Likud saying the exact same thing, they are against the existence of Palestine, the difference is they are actually carrying it out. 

Edited August 12 by Raze

[hundreth]

22 minutes ago, Raze said:

No it isn’t, it’s obvious to the entire world the violence they experience stems from the lack of Palestinians having a state, which is why the entire world wants a two state solution. A two state solution does not automatically mean giving up security.

The current situation points to it being the exact opposite, Palestinians not having a state is the danger to Israelis. Oct 7 happened because they had to move IDF from the Gaza border to the West Bank to protect settlers who need protection because they’re settling Palestinian lands and attacking them regularly.

Support for anti Israel militants primarily comes from how they treat the occupied Palestinians, if Palestinians had self determination, a lot of that support would dry up as it would be harder to justify.

the argument Palestinians can’t get a state because it’ll make Israel unsafe makes no sense when they are unsafe right now because the Palestinians don’t have a state. 

1) Why is “peaceful” in quotes? The protests were entirely peaceful in the beginning, the only IDF injury was a minor one, once the IDF started slaughtering them there was some violence but even then barely anything.

Multiple independent analysis have found they fired on peaceful protestors. 

 That wasn’t the only example, here is a list of the casualties on both sides during the first intifada mass protests, note the first year

https://www.btselem.org/statistics/first_intifada_tables
 

Another example

It’s not tired or bad faith, it is true, Israel consistently reacts to peaceful resistance with violence.

If Israel is just waiting for Palestinians to drop the violence, why were they not pushing towards peace prior to Oct 7? The PLO had given up armed resistance years ago. Hamas had maintained a ceasefire to the point where Israel thought they didn’t even need to properly guard Gaza anymore. Where were the negotiations? Instead they just continued pressuring Palestinians with violence, Gaza was still blockaded and suffocating, 2023 was the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank prior to Oct 7. They were pushing Palestinians against a wall and giving them no way out as always.

2) the charter never meant anything, it was written by like twelve fundamentalists who were under siege, of course they would write extreme crazy shit. The Israel side is the one that constantly brings the charter up, but when it gets changed rather than being glad things moved in a good direction you just insist it doesn’t matter for some reason.

What is more relevant than the charter is Hamas has offered cease fires multiple times and been rejected by Israel.

What is even more relevant is the charter of Likud saying the exact same thing, they are against the existence of Palestine, the difference is they are actually carrying it out. 

A few points:

- Right now the Israelis are in danger of attacks on the scale of a guerrilla Hamas. Now allow Hamas to have unlimited free flowing funding and supplies from Iran while building up an official military state. That becomes an existential threat, something much greater than October 7.

- You really drank the Kool-Aid that all of the issues stem from the lack of Palestinian statehood, yet Israel was attacked incessantly while the Palestinians were not under Israeli occupation. It's a highly reductionist way of looking at it. If the Palestinians had everything they wanted, it wouldn't stop them or Iran from moving towards the destruction of Israel. In fact you can see as recently as Israel left Gaza, Hamas was elected for that purpose.

- Peaceful is in quotes because the protest intentionally played games with the buffer zone. I don't know who fired the first shot, nor do I care... because the response was predictable. It resulted in cycles of escalations from both sides and blood shed.

- Protesting, whether violent or not is not what we mean by being peaceful. A protest is by definition an inflammatory event. To build trust in the region, you need extended periods of stability and integration. Being peaceful means no rockets, no missiles, no tunnel building, no stabbings, etc. It also means no longer teaching your youth the most vile anti Jew propaganda. From the Israeli side, it means no longer building settlements and expanding. It requires both sides to behave as friends for some time. That is what establishes trust.

- Prior to October 7th Israel was increasing the amount of work permits to Palestinians - as it seemed things were stabilizing. That is a positive gesture which increases cooperation and integration of both sides. This could have been a momentum builder, but Hamas used it as a chance to attack. This is how it always goes.

- Both the charters and the ceasefires are meaningless now. I'm fine not mentioning either, because actions speak louder than words and Hamas has proven via their actions that they meant what they said by their initial twelve fundamentalists and original charter. And it's not just because of Oct 7th, it is because of how they teach their youth to hate Jews and uphold the destruction of Israel as their highest value. Don't get me wrong, Israel has become more and more resigned to thwarting any chance of long term peace as well and they deserve their share of the blame. I just disagree with your one sided interpretation of what's going on there.

[Nivsch]

Edited August 12 by Nivsch

[Raze]

3 hours ago, hundreth said:

A few points:

- Right now the Israelis are in danger of attacks on the scale of a guerrilla Hamas. Now allow Hamas to have unlimited free flowing funding and supplies from Iran while building up an official military state. That becomes an existential threat, something much greater than October 7.

- You really drank the Kool-Aid that all of the issues stem from the lack of Palestinian statehood, yet Israel was attacked incessantly while the Palestinians were not under Israeli occupation. It's a highly reductionist way of looking at it. If the Palestinians had everything they wanted, it wouldn't stop them or Iran from moving towards the destruction of Israel. In fact you can see as recently as Israel left Gaza, Hamas was elected for that purpose.

- Peaceful is in quotes because the protest intentionally played games with the buffer zone. I don't know who fired the first shot, nor do I care... because the response was predictable. It resulted in cycles of escalations from both sides and blood shed.

- Protesting, whether violent or not is not what we mean by being peaceful. A protest is by definition an inflammatory event. To build trust in the region, you need extended periods of stability and integration. Being peaceful means no rockets, no missiles, no tunnel building, no stabbings, etc. It also means no longer teaching your youth the most vile anti Jew propaganda. From the Israeli side, it means no longer building settlements and expanding. It requires both sides to behave as friends for some time. That is what establishes trust.

- Prior to October 7th Israel was increasing the amount of work permits to Palestinians - as it seemed things were stabilizing. That is a positive gesture which increases cooperation and integration of both sides. This could have been a momentum builder, but Hamas used it as a chance to attack. This is how it always goes.

- Both the charters and the ceasefires are meaningless now. I'm fine not mentioning either, because actions speak louder than words and Hamas has proven via their actions that they meant what they said by their initial twelve fundamentalists and original charter. And it's not just because of Oct 7th, it is because of how they teach their youth to hate Jews and uphold the destruction of Israel as their highest value. Don't get me wrong, Israel has become more and more resigned to thwarting any chance of long term peace as well and they deserve their share of the blame. I just disagree with your one sided interpretation of what's going on there.

- no one is saying they have to give Hamas a military. There are options other than crushing occupation and creating an enemy state,

- Iran can’t do anything unless they have Palestinians willing to fight for them. A political horizon massively removes this, the former head of Shin Bet Ami Ayalon said himself when negotiations were happening he was surprised by how quickly violent attacks reduced when he was in charge of security. Israel was attacked incessantly because it violently expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and continuously provoked conflicts. Israel did not “leave” Gaza, they pulled out but kept the blockade around it, that’s like saying if someone keeps you hostage in your house leaves your hours but stands outside with a gun to keep you inside has “left”. Palestinians elected Hamas because the PLO was failing to free them from the blockade and occupation, not to destroy Israel. When Hamas was elected they offered a ceasefire but Israel immediately increased the blockade and tried to overthrow them.

- it being predictable that Israel would fire on peaceful protestors does not make it ok

- So as Israel continues to brutalize them they can’t even protest because it’s inflammatory and justifies even more brutality? That makes no sense. It doesn’t matter what they teach in schools, Palestinians will never like Israelis as long as they are keeping them trapped and killing them by the dozen. 

- It could not be a momentum builder. Netanyahu was trying to temporarily buy off Hamas while he secured a deal with Saudi Arabia and other Arab States, hoping that they would accept Israel without freedom for Palestinians and potentially dooming any future for Palestine. Hamas realized this and thwarted it by pulling off the attack and forcing the Arab nations to leave the negotiation table by bringing the Palestinian plight into public consciousness again through Israel’s massive response.

- Ceasefire proposals aren’t meaningless as they indicate potential for peace. It’s reductionist to say Oct 7 proves Hamas innately hates Jews for irrational reasons, they had many other reasons to want to attack Israel. 

 

Edited August 12 by Raze

[hundreth]

17 minutes ago, Raze said:

- no one is saying they have to give Hamas a military. There are options other than crushing occupation and creating an enemy state,

We don't have any alternative to Hamas at the moment. The Palestinians themselves favor Hamas to the PLO, and the PLO also engages in funding the families of those who murder civilians. They aren't Hamas, but they're also pretty bad. 

Quote

- Iran can’t do anything unless they have Palestinians willing to fight for them. A political horizon massively removes this, the former head of Shin Bet Ami Ayalon said himself when negotiations were happening he was surprised by how quickly violent attacks reduced when he was in charge of security. Israel was attacked incessantly because it violently expelled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians and continuously provoked conflicts. Israel did not “leave” Gaza, they pulled out but kept the blockade around it, that’s like saying if someone keeps you hostage in your house leaves your hours but stands outside with a gun to keep you inside has “left”. Palestinians elected Hamas because the PLO was failing to free them from the blockade and occupation, not to destroy Israel. When Hamas was elected they offered a ceasefire but Israel immediately increased the blockade and tried to overthrow them.

Israel took a huge step towards giving Gazan's the freedom they asked for. Did they completely 100% remove all security considerations overnight? No. But how is that the issue?

If a police officer handcuffed you and in the process of freeing you removed one of the handcuffs, would you then immediately use your free hand to punch them in the face? At some point you need to allow incremental progress to happen.

Quote

- it being predictable that Israel would fire on peaceful protestors does not make it ok

- So as Israel continues to brutalize them they can’t even protest because it’s inflammatory and justifies even more brutality? That makes no sense. It doesn’t matter what they teach in schools, Palestinians will never like Israelis as long as they are keeping them trapped and killing them by the dozen. 

That's not what I said, I never meant that they couldn't protest. It's just whenever we speak of establishing trust and behaving peacefully, you bring up protests as if that's a show of anything. Peace is not attacking Israeli civilians. Of course it matters what they teach in schools. Would you say Israeli society's current right leaning trend doesn't matter? Does it matter that there are swaths of Israeli society who are in fact now racist towards Palestinians? What a bizarre thing to say. 

If Israelis taught even 25% of the crazy racist things Hamas teaches in schools, you would have a post about it every 5 minutes.

Quote

- It could not be a momentum builder. Netanyahu was trying to temporarily buy off Hamas while he secured a deal with Saudi Arabia and other Arab States, hoping that they would accept Israel without freedom for Palestinians and potentially dooming any future for Palestine. Hamas realized this and thwarted it by pulling off the attack and forcing the Arab nations to leave the negotiation table by bringing the Palestinian plight into public consciousness again through Israel’s massive response.

Fair enough.

Quote

- Ceasefire proposals aren’t meaningless as they indicate potential for peace. It’s reductionist to say Oct 7 proves Hamas innately hates Jews for irrational reasons, they had many other reasons to want to attack Israel. 

It's meaningless because neither side actually wants one. Also, if you look at what I wrote I explicitly said it's not only because of Oct 7. It's really the straw that broke the camel's back. There's no going back to the status quo of skirmishes with Hamas. 

[Minini]

https://x.com/PeruginiNic/status/1822870244869681294 

Image of what has been bombarded by the Israeli military in Gaza since Oct (source UN Satellite Centre, updated Jul 6)

Bombing spree, it's like a video game to them. 

[Raze]

41 minutes ago, hundreth said:

We don't have any alternative to Hamas at the moment. The Palestinians themselves favor Hamas to the PLO, and the PLO also engages in funding the families of those who murder civilians. They aren't Hamas, but they're also pretty bad. 

- You can still work out a deal around this. For example, negotiate the state be demilitarized, or require its security to be taken up by a outside third party.
If Israel is still so against a Palestinian state, then do a one state solution, let all the Palestinians have equal rights with Israelis.

- I don’t see how Israel can say them funding families who lost their breadwinner is pure evil when Israel funds IDF directly who kill Palestinians right and left

41 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Israel took a huge step towards giving Gazan's the freedom they asked for. Did they completely 100% remove all security considerations overnight? No. But how is that the issue?

If a police officer handcuffed you and in the process of freeing you removed one of the handcuffs, would you then immediately use your free hand to punch them in the face? At some point you need to allow incremental progress to happen.

At the time of Hamas’s election the majority of Palestinians who voted for them did not agree with Hamas’s position about Israel not having a right to exist, exit polls showed the main reason was because they saw the other party Fatah hopelessly corrupt and current peace processes not going anywhere. Voting for Hamas wasn’t a punch in the face of Israel, it was a punch in the face of Fatah and the PLO.

41 minutes ago, hundreth said:

That's not what I said, I never meant that they couldn't protest. It's just whenever we speak of establishing trust and behaving peacefully, you bring up protests as if that's a show of anything. Peace is not attacking Israeli civilians. Of course it matters what they teach in schools. Would you say Israeli society's current right leaning trend doesn't matter? Does it matter that there are swaths of Israeli society who are in fact now racist towards Palestinians? What a bizarre thing to say. 

If Israelis taught even 25% of the crazy racist things Hamas teaches in schools, you would have a post about it every 5 minutes.

When Palestinians are passive, it doesn’t make Israel any less violent. Prior to the first Intifada the Palestinians were not nearly as violent despite constant abuses. Currently in the West Bank the Palestinians aren’t even defending themselves and settlers and if and killing them constantly.

I’m saying it doesn’t matter because in the case of the Palestinians it’s not the education system convincing them to not like Israel. The education system could switch to entirely pro Israel propaganda and I sincerely doubt it would make a difference.

Imagine if you were born in the West Bank. You get harassed by soldiers regularly. Settlers will throw stuff at you or spit on you, if you try to do anything back you know you’re going to a military court with a 99% conviction rate that has put kids in prison for years for throwing stones. You have to walk through check points constantly. You see your friends and families homes being constantly demolished. Imagine you were born in Gaza. You are probably unemployed, you’re trapped in a area the size of Las Vegas full of poverty, all you can do is wander around all day. You have lost relatives in any of the various bombing campaigns, you probably have signs of ptsd, you do however see and hear people celebrating and partying in Israel right next door. 

It doesn’t matter what any school system tells you, you aren’t going to like the people who do this to you.

41 minutes ago, hundreth said:

PIt's meaningless because neither side actually wants one. Also, if you look at what I wrote I explicitly said it's not only because of Oct 7. It's really the straw that broke the camel's back. There's no going back to the status quo of skirmishes with Hamas. 

How do you know Hamas doesn’t want a ceasefire? 

Edited August 12 by Raze

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

- You can still work out a deal around this. For example, negotiate the state be demilitarized, or require its security to be taken up by a outside third party. If Israel is still so against a Palestinian state, then do a one state solution, let all the Palestinians have equal rights with Israelis 

Sure, it would be lovely to negotiate many things but there's no one to negotiate with at the moment. Even if you had the most progressive Israeli leader who wanted to grant statehood, there's no partner to discuss those parameters with. I think the third party idea is also the best one for how to proceed in Gaza, but not surprisingly no one wants to be there. Especially with a frothed up Hamas still running the show.

Quote

- I don’t see how Israel can say them funding families who lost their breadwinner is pure evil when Israel funds IDF directly who kill Palestinians right and left

We're talking about rogue actors infiltrating Israeli homes and stabbing families while they're asleep. Funding that is of course evil. When Israelis protest accountability for those Israeli soldiers facing sexual abuse allegations, it's just as bad. The PLO incentivizes this behavior by granting those families paychecks for life.

Quote

At the time of Hamas’s election the majority of Palestinians who voted for them did not agree with Hamas’s position about Israel not having a right to exist, exit polls showed the main reason was because they saw the other party Fatah hopelessly corrupt and current peace processes not going anywhere. Voting for Hamas wasn’t a punch in the face of Israel, it was a punch in the face of Fatah and the PLO.

When Palestinians are passive, it doesn’t make Israel any less violent. Prior to the first Intifada the Palestinians were not nearly as violent despite constant abuses. Currently in the West Bank the Palestinians aren’t even defending themselves and settlers and if and killing them constantly.

I don't know where you got this majority statistic. But even if Fatah was a motivation, they immediately started shooting rockets into Israel. Is that not a punch in the face either?

If Palestinians aren't violent while establishing someone truly capable of negotiating on their behalf for peace, then something can develop from it. I don't deny that Israel has thwarted this to some extent, but in the absence of a peace partner there's not much which can be improved. 

Quote

I’m saying it doesn’t matter because in the case of the Palestinians it’s not the education system convincing them to not like Israel. The education system could switch to entirely pro Israel propaganda and I sincerely doubt it would make a difference.

Imagine if you were born in the West Bank. You get harassed by soldiers regularly. Settlers will throw stuff at you or spit on you, if you try to do anything back you know you’re going to a military court with a 99% conviction rate that has put kids in prison for years for throwing stones. You have to walk through check points constantly. You see your friends and families homes being constantly demolished. Imagine you were born in Gaza. You are probably unemployed, you’re trapped in a area the size of Las Vegas full of poverty, all you can do is wander around all day. You have lost relatives in any of the various bombing campaigns, you probably have signs of ptsd, you do however see and hear people celebrating and partying in Israel right next door. 

It doesn’t matter what any school system tells you, you aren’t going to like the people who do this to you.

There's levels to this. There's a huge difference between disdain for a political machine and dehumanizing an entire ethnic group. The Palestinian youth has been brainwashed with the most twisted perceptions of their neighbors. It makes establishing a relationship almost impossible. A Palestinian leader can't bring themselves to tell their population they're now working towards friendship with the evil Zionists and have a two state partition. What Arafat used to tell his constituents is that you make peace now so you can wage war later. 

Arafat used the Islamic concept of the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah. 

This was the text of Arafat’s famous Johannesburg speech in May 1994—after he signed the Oslo Accords in September 1993:

Quote

 

I have to speak frankly, I can't do it alone without the support of the Islamic nation. I can't do it alone. No, you have to come and to fight and to start the Jihad to liberate Jerusalem, your first shrine.

In the agreement I insist with my colleagues, with my brothers, to mention that not exceeding the beginning of the third year, and after -- directly after -- the signing of their agreement, to start discussing the future of Jerusalem. The future of Jerusalem.

What they are saying is that [Jerusalem] is their capital. No, it is not their capital. It is our capital. It is the first shrine of the Islam and the Moslems.

This agreement, I am not considering it more than the agreement which had been signed between our prophet Mohammed and Koraish, and you remember the Caliph Omar had refused this agreement and [considered] it a despicable truce.

[Ed. note: The agreement with Koraish allowed Mohammed to pray in Mecca, which was under Koraish control, for ten years. When Mohammed grew stronger two years later, he abrogated the agreement, slaughtered the tribe of Koraish and conquered Mecca.]

But Mohammed had accepted it and we are accepting now this peace offer. But to continue our way to Jerusalem, to the first shrine together and not alone.

We are in need of you as Moslems, as warriors of Jihad [in Arabic, Mujaheddin].

 

This is the reality of what Israel is up against.

Quote

How do you know Hamas doesn’t want a ceasefire? 

Both parties really want a temporary ceasefire so that they can resume activities when they see fit. In Hamas' case, more October 7ths. In Israel's case, the continuation of the elimination of Hamas.

[Nivsch]

The tweets I add to here are always only from Israeli people, and translated.

Edited August 13 by Nivsch

[zazen]

On 8/12/2024 at 1:24 PM, hundreth said:

This isn't about "worthiness." The Palestinians can literally do whatever they want and achieve statehood, EXCEPT for initiating attacks and firing rockets at Israel. 

That's how low the bar is set. 

International law and rights will always take a back seat when survival is at stake. As I said earlier, you have it backwards for this reason. 

The reason you need peace as a starting point is very simple. You need to know that the moment you grant what they wish for, they won't turn around and kill you. It's not about worthiness, it's about building trust.

Building settlements on what could be their state literally erodes the trust and peace - that is the low bar set for Israel, to simply stop taking more land.

But from the world of realpolitik, I see where your coming from - which is why I've sadly concluded before that there doesn't seem to be a solution, except one that is imposed from outside, which there is very little will to do (US just approved 20 billion dollars worth of weapons to Israel). Israel will only act out of pragmatism, not principle - and only when there is enough pressure politically, economically, and physically (survival) might they concede to some sort of settlement mediated by outside forces, not directly with Hamas of course.

Often I write, as I think others do too, from the lens of international politics and justice. Because thats the cultural marinade of liberalism we're all swimming in. It's the liberal world order we're trying to (and told to) build. It defers to justice for peace, but often we default to the natural order of power where peace before justice prevails. That peace is usually attained through the existence of or imposition of power - even if it delays justice and prolongs current injustice. Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum - If You Want Peace, Prepare For War. The existence of power acts as a deterrence, which brings about peace so long as that power isn't abused.

Justice for peace is how we hope the world could work, grounded in law and principles. The existence of or imposition of peace before justice, is grounded in power dynamics and pragmatism. The world works between the two. Laws and institutions were created to make right, what might often would (through blood) but that left the door open for revenge and retaliation only to perpetuate conflicts. That is the basis of us calling ourselves civilised, but we aren't - we're on our way to it.

It's the hypocrisy (of calling oneself civilised whilst the other barbaric) that rubs a lot of the Global South the wrong way, including Westerners themselves against their own political class. The hypocrite stands on a pedestal of their own making, pontificating about virtues they fail to embody and casting others as evil, for sins they themselves commit and attempt to conceal through propaganda and linguistic gymnastics. This lack of integrity, and gap between actions and words is what erodes the trust you rightly pointed to that needs to be built. This is why the world is bifurcating between the East and West, and parallel systems (BRICS) are being built which the West now bemoans. The next decades will be heavily predicated along these lines.

Edited August 14 by zazen