Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Something Funny]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys sorta have the causality backwards.

Has it ever occurred to you that the reason the West started dominating the Middle East in the first place was because the Arab nations were so severely underdeveloped to begin with, making them easy targets?

Okay, so by that logic, as soon as middle eastern countries become developed enough, they will stop getting bullied and will become bullies themselves, eradicating Israel.

So the main condition for Israels's survival is to keep all the countries in the middle east intentionally underdeveloped, which I don't think is possible. 

Which would mean that Israel is going to be destroyed sooner or later. 

I guess their strategy of oppression is self-defeating, if you look at it like that.

Edited August 11 by Something Funny

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Can you also do the same for Trump and Covid Vaccines? 

No, because those two issues are clear and settled. I am not going to engage in low cognitive BS.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

as soon as middle eastern countries become developed enough, they will stop getting bullied and will become bullies themselves, eradicating Israel.

Not quite. The old colonial days are over. Eradicating nations is also not workable these days. Times change.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Something Funny]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Not quite. The old colonial days are over. Eradicating nations is also not workable these days. Times change.

But Israel is alone in the sea of enemy nations. What makes you think that it could survive if they were technologically equal or that they wouldn't want to destroy it?

Are you just trusting that America will be able to protect it forever?

[Buck Edwards]

4 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

But Israel is alone in the sea of enemy nations. What makes you think that it could survive if they were technologically equal or that they wouldn't want to destroy it?

Are you just trusting that America will be able to protect it forever?

You forget that Israel is capable of nuclear war. 

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

But Israel is alone in the sea of enemy nations. What makes you think that it could survive if they were technologically equal or that they wouldn't want to destroy it?

Seems like the only serious enemy is Iran. And Iran seems to be able to negotiate.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Gennadiy1981]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No, because those two issues are clear and settled. I am not going to engage in low cognitive BS.

Agree about Trump. 
 

But with all seriousness the vaccines can be dangerous and now a lot of people are changing their perspective including Chris Cuomo. This is a topic that can be said a lot with scientific evidence. And I am speaking with all vaccines and besides before Covid you were also speaking ill of vaccines in general. If interested there is a lot of scientific data out there now, I can share. 

[Minini]

47 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That doesn't mean America ain't Orange.

If we can agree that what the US and Israel is doing is Blue/Orange devilry, don't you think greens should pressure orange (those in power) to develop towards green in order to evolve overall in the spiral dynamics, and later on when the collective and those in power are green enough then they can be pressured to evolve to yellow? 

Just like what the UN is currently trying to do? The required step for Orange to develop is to go Green first, not for yellow to give them a 'green' card to continue their atrocities, no? 

Edited August 11 by Minini

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Minini said:

don't you think greens should pressure orange (those in power) to develop towards green in order to evolve overall in the spiral

Sounds nice in theory, but Green tends to behave in such silly ways that people would rather shoot themselves than go Green.

Green has to present a sane version of Green or it becomes counter-productive.

[Minini]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Sounds nice in theory, but Green tends to behave in such silly ways that people would rather shoot themselves than go Green.

Green has to present a sane version of Green or it becomes counter-productive.

I agree with you on this point when it comes to something like identity politics, but regarding what's happening in Gaza, the UN and the Green point of view represents the global consensus. It's only the US and Israeli gov that are resisting this green wave. 

Which is actually self-destructive to them. In this age of social media and easy spread of atrocities footage, their reputation has gone beyond repair.  Unlike, historical conflicts that became more forgettable due to the absence of visual documentation. 

Edited August 11 by Minini

[Bobby_2021]

Every society has some aspects of red, blue, orange and green in it. 

Casting a society as a specific stage is not accurate. An ostensibly green society might have a strong red underbelly that will be invoked at times. It would be more appropriate to call it red when it is acting as such.

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, Minini said:

don't you think greens should pressure orange (those in power) to develop towards green in order to evolve overall in the spiral dynamics, and later on when the collective and those in power are green enough then they can be pressured to evolve to yellow? 

Nobody can make anybody to evolve even not through instructions. This is a personal self customized process only you can know what it will be.

Edited August 11 by Nivsch

[Minini]

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Nobody can make anybody to evolve even not through instructions. This is a personal self customized process only you can know what it will be.

I think things like boycott and protest (green methods) can to some extent pressure orange establishments into becoming more evolved. Like what happened in South Africa. 

Edited August 11 by Minini

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, I know.

Don't forget the rape and torture that happened in American prisons in Iraq.

That doesn't mean America ain't Orange.

Prisons during war are nasty, godless places.

Was it systematic in America? Were there debates on live TV and in congress about whether it is ok to torture and rape people in American prisons in Iraq? Because in Israel you had ministers and politicans say that it is ok to rape Palestinians in prisons. As far as I know, America covered it up and apologized when it became public. Israel thinks it is moral and ok to do. I doubt America had this going on, although I was too young back then to know anything.

You also had catholic priests abuse childreen but you never had the catholic church openly discuss whether it is ok for catholic priests to sexually abuse kids. 

Israeli lawmaker defends alleged rape of Hamas prisoner as far-right protesters rage over IDF troops' detention - CBS News

‘Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape (msn.com)

Israel’s Torture & Rape of Palestinian Prisoners Defended by Knesset Members, Far-Right Mobs | Democracy Now!

And the case where 10 soldiers were detained they were now released and they roam free.

In an orange society they would be locked for a criminal offense.

I do not see Russians being raped, tortured, starved in Ukranian prisons systemically and massively , so this type of treatment is not "normal".  Even though Russia has done to Ukraine 1000x worse than Hamas ever did to Israel.

Majority of Palestinians in Israeli prisons suffer torture.

Childreen too.

If this is orange behavior, then I gave orange too much credit.

PS: My main criticism here is on the far right Israelis, I have seen comments from more moderate Israelis condemn the incident.

 

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Because the far right isn't Orange.

[Nivsch]

10 minutes ago, Minini said:

I think things like boycott and protest (green methods) can to some extent pressure orange establishments into becoming more evolved. Like what happened in South Africa. 

This was because of replacement of people in charge, but it is possible that some people found out they were wrong but some others will polarize more. Depend on the person.

Edited August 11 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Because the far right isn't Orange.

So the Israeli governement is not orange, which is the main topic of discussion here with Leo.

Israel is ruled by the far right currently.

There was this ex prime minister which you send, for example that denounced the incident is not in any position of power.

I am not saying there are no orange or even Green Israelis.

But the people in power are below Orange.

I am comparing governments here.

But endorsing and pushing for rape and torture of prisoners to me seems more like red behavior than Blue.

So elements there are between Red and Blue, not pure Blue.

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

55 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Every society has some aspects of red, blue, orange and green in it. 

Casting a society as a specific stage is not accurate. An ostensibly green society might have a strong red underbelly that will be invoked at times. It would be more appropriate to call it red when it is acting as such.

Agreed.

There is a deep irony in how the very tools and systems created by Stage Orange - associated with rationality, capitalism, and scientific progress - have led to the resurgence of tribalistic behaviours and identities more characteristic of earlier stages like Stage Red (egocentric, power-oriented) and Stage Blue (authoritarian, rule-based) in Spiral Dynamics. 

Silicon Valley titans who are stage Orange poster children have given us social media platforms that are essentially digital campfires that bring out our inner stage red tribalism to dance around in echo chambers, beating our chests and throwing virtual spears at the 'other.' We’re still religious without religions - and behave dogmatically handing down commandments of groupthink we think is “right” while the “other” is wrong.

Social justice warriors and stage green guardians of the galaxy are using Orange stage tech to religiously enforce their values like stage Blue dogmatists, all while claiming to be the vanguards of evolution.

Humans are complex enough to encapsulate stage Red rage, stage Blue righteousness, stage Orange technology, and stage Green idealism. There's a dangerous trap in developmental theories that risk creating a new hierarchy that can be used to justify oppression the same way colonial powers once used concepts of "civilization" to justify their domination of "primitive" peoples.

Those who use Spiral Dynamics in this way are often exhibiting the very traits they claim to have transcended. They're engaging in tribal thinking (Red), us-vs-them mentality (Blue), and rationalization of power structures (Orange), all while claiming to operate from a more "evolved" perspective.

The truth is, human societies and individuals are far more complex than any single developmental model can capture. Palestinians, Israelis, or any other group aren't monoliths that can be neatly categorized into a single stage. They contain multitudes, with individuals and subgroups spanning various levels of development according to different metrics.

Moreover, what constitutes "development" is itself a culturally loaded concept. The Green stage values of Western liberals might look like moral decay to those prioritizing traditional values, just as capitalist notions of progress might seem destructive to indigenous cultures prioritizing harmony with nature. Who gets to decide?

When the excesses of "Stage Green" are criticised such as when the pronoun brigade broadly accept identifying themselves however they wish ( we literally got pregnant man emojis 🫃🏻) These constructs are often defended as just an overreach of a more advanced developmental stage green. But what if it's not an advanced stage at all, and instead just a delusion fueled by an ideology that isn't grounded in truth or reality? Why is this delusion considered better than the delusion of a religious fundamentalist who believes in martyrdom?

Edited August 11 by zazen

[Nivsch]

12 hours ago, zazen said:

green. But what if it's not an advanced stage at all, and instead just a delusion fueled by an ideology that isn't grounded in truth or reality?

Green is still in war with himself in some significant aspects, and it is being reflected outwards.

Edited August 12 by Nivsch

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