Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

Most important for this discussion is the development of government structures, organization, and markets. But also science and tech.

Yeah I get you. Social justice warriors do not consider that as important as being kind, caring , fair, honest etc.

Nazi Germany was pretty organized and had clear structures.

Yet green people will consider it less developed than African tribes because of their inhumane actions.

I am not taking sides here, just reporting.

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

USSR should have never dissolved.

Please stop this cringe.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Yet green people will consider it less developed than African tribes because of their inhumane actions.

Green people need a whack with a broom to the head. Maybe that will free up some space for Yellow.

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Green people need a whack with a broom to the head. Maybe that will free up some space for Yellow.

What advice do you have for a proper green to go to yellow?

It is almost impossible to meet yellow people.

Except books and the channels you have suggested, any other way?

Green to Yellow is a huge gap after all.

Especially on an emotional level.

We all here know about developmental stages etc, but emotionally we feel social justice like.

How do you transcend that?

I am personally struggling with it.

[Bobby_2021]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That IS development.

The West was pretty developed before 1500.

Finding new lands was the natural extension of their development. Of course plundering new land helped super-charge development.

India and China was the wealthiest at the time. They didn't need to dominate anyone to get developed.

The western notion of development is too intertwined with criminal domination that they forget you can develop without having to slit each others throats. Of course I am not saying that India and China were angels, but hey look at the the degree of domination. 

India literally never invaded anyone ever in her 10,000 years of history and still managed to be the wealthiest nation in the world before the British colonial rule.

[Karmadhi]

3 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

India literally never invaded anyone ever in her 10,000 years of history and still managed to be the wealthiest nation in the world before the British colonial rule.

Keep in mind, development is not just how you treat other countries but also how you treat your own people.

India had a ruthless cast system which prohibited any upward mobility which still exists even today in a low degree.

The West created the first human rights bills, ended slavery and overall had the most equal and democratic structures for the time.

So in that sense they were indeed more developed.

Issue is that the West had a pretty small circle of concern.

Racism was their biggest issue.

It is kind of how the Nazis treated their own people much better than the Soviets, but the Nazis were much more inhumane to other countries than the Soviets were.

So the question is, who is indeed more developed?

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I acknowledge all that. But it's too late now.

No it isn’t, the only thing stopping things from moving in a positive development right now is Israel and the Us blocking a ceasefire and blocking UN recognition of Palestine. Every other country in the world is asking for this, they aren’t all shills for Muslims, they understand endless occupation and war will lead to endless violence.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

India literally never invaded anyone ever in her 10,000 years of history and still managed to be the wealthiest nation in the world before the British colonial rule.

"Wealthiest nation" is a misleading measure. The reality is that most Indians were still wiping their asses with their hands. So your point is meaningless.

The British are not why India is underdeveloped today. If anything Indians today are better off thanks to British rule, ugly though it was.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

What advice do you have for a proper green to go to yellow?

My biggest advice is to identify all your biases and choose the pursuit of truth and epistemic developement over social justice and whatever other misplaced loyalities you have.

Focus on epistemology and construct-awareness, not politics. You have to go meta and stop playing Game A.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

"Wealthiest nation" is a misleading measure. The reality is that most Indians were still wiping their asses with their hands. So your point is meaningless.

Well, we have both made our points clear prior to all this. I do not think you are making a serious point here. 

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My biggest advice is to identify all your biases and choose the pursuit of truth and epistemic developement over social justice and whatever other misplaced loyalities you have.

Focus on epistemology and construct-awareness, not politics. You have to go meta and stop playing Game A.

To be fair, I am already there. I see a lot of things that other are not seeing. I am still on the lookout for errors though. 

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I see a lot of things that other are not seeing.

That's easy.

The real trick is seeing the things you're not seeing.

[Leo Gura]

@Bobby_2021 You know, the wealthyist man in the world in all of history was some king in the middle of Africa. And so what? What did that do for that African country's development? Nothing.

[zazen]

On 15/05/2024 at 0:45 PM, zazen said:

A phrase I've heard before is that we are prisoners of geography. I think what this means is that geography (just like genetics) has a certain constraint and influence on what humans can do. Analogous to hardware / software = software operates within the constraints of the hardware it runs on.

The structure / hardware dictates to a extent what software / state of mind is possible. It’s the conciousness (software) that maximizes but is limited to the constraints of the hardware (geography, genetics) it is housed within. 

As a example Middle East is at a cross roads between continents and civilizations which meant there was a flow of trade and ideas compared to say Australia at the edge of the world and only accessible once naval technology took off. Similarly from a military perspective countries with mountains around it or the sea become much less likely to be invaded due to their difficulty - nature provides a moat.

India for example has the himalayas to its north and is surrounded by sea - obviously these were overcome with technological advancements. But compare this to more flat land regions where invasions are much more easier and likely where tribes/clans/groups clash like Europe or the flats Middle East.

 

23 hours ago, zazen said:

The progress narrative often suggests the path is rocky but in the right direction. In reality, the steps we take forward can generate such severe externalities and unforeseen consequences that the single step back becomes catastrophic, not only undoing the progress we thought we made but sometimes dragging us to the abyss. Also, some of those steps forward may be forward in the wrong direction - we need to differentiate between change and progress and not conflate change with progress - change is cosmetic, superficial and quantitative whilst progress is deeper, substantive and qualitative.

Put another way, the three steps forward, one step back analogy assumes the steps forward and back are of equal weight. But the back step can be so profound and far reaching in its impact, that it completely negates, and even exceeds, any forward momentum.

We need to redefine progress to be more holistic as it’s often easier to quantify the material, and harder to quantify the immaterial aspects of life that are much more meaningful. Focusing on materialist metrics over meaningful ones and simplistically saying the world’s better is too simplistic. We should ask - at what expense have scientific and technological advancements occurred? And have these translated into social and spiritual well being, or are they destabilising.

Economic growth has occurred unequally and is now eroding buying power through inflation to the point of a whole “hustle culture” and gig economy needing to spawn. The pace of change and disruption requires people to reinvent themselves every few years or decades causing psychological distress and job insecurity that didn’t exist before. To illustrate, in the past people’s surnames often reflected their occupations ie Smith for blacksmiths, Baker for bakers, Miller for grain mill workers.

We can develop all the tools we want (through science and technology ie progress and advancement) but what good is the tool if the user of the tool isn’t well enough to use them. Another way to put it is this: we are developing lifestyles but don't have life quality. A parallel to this is that we have extended lifespans but not necessarily health spans.

 

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

My biggest advice is to identify all your biases and choose the pursuit of truth and epistemic developement over social justice and whatever other misplaced loyalities you have.

Focus on epistemology and construct-awareness, not politics. You have to go meta and stop playing Game A.

Fair, noted.

I feel like when it comes to this war, some of us here are more informed about all the atrocities that Israel has done which is why we struggle to put them anything above Blue.

For example do you know there is widespread rape, torture of Palestinians in Isareli prisons?

There are countless clips of Israeli soldiers mocking the destruction in Gaza.

Endless online comments of Israelis wishing for more deaths of Palestinians and saying nobody in Gaza is innocent.

Tons of genocidal comments from Israeli top politicans.

When you see all this, it is hard to feel this is a morally developed society.

It is not just that they bomb Gaza.

They snipe kids, intentionally bomb civilians, rape and torture prisoners, celebrate deaths of Palestinians at large, engineer a famine,  etc etc.

Just "not nuking gaza" is not enough to call a country "developed".

Russia has not nuked Ukraine.

What suprised me about Hamas, is that they did not really abuse their hostages.

I saw interviews with them, even the 4 rescued ones and their biggest issue was boredom and fear of being bombed by Israel. I would except them to be like the Ukranian prisoners when Russia exchanges them. Half starved, bruised, so in horrible condition. But they seemed totally fine.

That act made me somewhat questioned Hamas development.

A true red organization would give in on the temptation to rip them apart limb from limb given the carnage Israel has unleashed on Gaza.

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Bobby_2021 You know, the wealthyist man in the world in all of history was some king in the middle of Africa. And so what? What did that do for that African country's development? Nothing.

You’re conflating long term development with short term development. A country in the long term can have developmental issues based on geographic factors, but in the short term be highly effected by intervention.

[Ayham]

Guys

 

I have no idea the details of your fight, but it seems obvious that both sides are in the wrong now, both have killed civilians and both are motivated by selfish interest.

Originally, I would say that Hamas was justified for acting against Israel, but after what they did, they went too fast and they are just as bad now.

 

Both are running on evil and selfishness, and both civilians are the ones getting in trouble as a result.

You can't really blame any side either, power corrupts, and the national identity is too strong, there should be good communication but that isn't gonna happen, let us have a stage yellow outlook on things rather than demonizing any side.

 

And I'm an Arab myself.

Edited August 11 by Ayham

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

For example do you know there is widespread rape, torture of Palestinians in Isareli prisons?

Yes, I know.

Don't forget the rape and torture that happened in American prisons in Iraq.

That doesn't mean America ain't Orange.

Prisons during war are nasty, godless places.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Gennadiy1981]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nothing about my position has changed.

I have never had any illusions about Hamas.

Israel is still abusing a minority group through devilry.

I have not and will not have a bias towards either side of this debate. I am here to point out biases and epistemic errors regardless of side. I do not favor any side. My purpose is meta. That's what you see.

Thank you for the reply. Appreciate that and I like that. I like that you are going meta. 
 

Can you also do the same for Trump and Covid Vaccines? 
 

P.S. Being sarcastic but honestly I appreciate that you are not just only on one side and view the problem more from the neutral side and I totally agree with you that there is no solution but as you said war.

Edited August 11 by Gennadiy1981

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If anything Indians today are better off thanks to British rule, ugly though it was.

Are you for real?

The only good thing British left here is their language.

I am not saying that the corruption some dude is running on some construction project is because of the British rule. It's more subtler than that. Nevertheless it still exists.

Saying that India should be thankful for British invading her sovereignty is beyond delusional. 

You should check the stats before and after the British rule before saying such stuff.

[Bobby_2021]

@Karmadhi  Caste system was effective and progressive for it's time. At least there were no chains on slaves like in the "developed" west. 

Our society has found a way to do all jobs without being too oppressive like slavery in the west.