Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

26 minutes ago, Raze said:

If someone stronger than you beats you up, are you to blame for your injuries because you weren’t strong enough to fight back?

The correct analogy is:

A D-student gets beat up in 10th grade, and then blames the last decade of his poor school performance on that.

That's essentially what you guys are doing here. Trying to convince us that a D-student would be an A-student if not for some pesky bully.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I said 10%. That is a big portion.

What's insane is thinking that Arabs would be highly developed if not for the West. You are living in Commie fantasyland. Without the West, Arabs would still be riding around on camels.

During the Islamic golden age Arab nations were more developed than Europe 

[Bobby_2021]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

The correct analogy is:

A D-student gets beat up in 10th grade, and then blames the last decade of his poor school performance on that.

Who is doing the blaming? 

The bully is blaming the D student for getting beaten up due to his last decade performance.

Bully is the one doing victim blaming here.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Who is doing the blaming? 

The bully is blaming the D student for getting beaten up due to his last decade performance.

Bully is the one doing victim blaming here.

No. Every intelligent mind acknowledges that the West are bullies. That's not at question.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Raze said:

During the Islamic golden age Arab nations were more developed than Europe 

So where is your Golden Age? Did the West steal it?

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

No. Every intelligent mind acknowledges that the West are bullies.

Then go the extra step and acknowledge that west is superior because they were bullies.

Not because of their "development".

It's a game of domination. Be honest.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

But is it not a consensus that the IDF is killing an excessive amount of innocent civilians? This definitely has to contribute to Palestinian resentment, hatred, and future terrorism.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_genocide

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Then go the extra step and acknowledge that west is superior because they were bullies.

Not because of their "development".

It's a game of domination. Be honest.

No. But it is a complex issue. The West is largely so developed because of two key factors: 1) highly favorable geography, 2) a geography which forced millenia of intense combat which drove an arms race pressure cooker which fueled development.

The West is so developed because they bullied themselves for 5000 years.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura Leo, the issue here is that in every society you have extremists and moderates. 

In Israel moderates would be people like Benny Gantz and extremists people like Ben Gvir.

In Palestine, moderates are the PLO and extremists would be Hamas or the Islamic Jihad.

When you create suffering, oppression etc for a group of people, it creates the conditions for extremists to take over and become the most popular.

The whole reason Nazis took over Germany was because of the 1929 crisis and the Versaille Treaty.

What Israel does to Palestine and especially Gaza (no Hamas in West Bank), is create the conditions for the radicals to rise up and become popular.

If Israel would cease this oppression and occupation, then Hamas would become less attractive.

Maybe the top leadership will exist, the ideology will exist, but they will find it much harder to recruit soldiers.

The ideology would slowly die since the conditions that keep it strong are no longer there.

Radicalism is a byproduct of certain harsh survival conditions, if those conditions are changed, the radicalism will die out.

For example the West Bank which is less oppressed, is ruled by the PLO.

PLO I would put at mostly Blue, they cooperate with Israel and are not genocidal like Hamas.

Why so?

Because West Bank is not as oppressed nor poor as Gaza.

Now, regarding military, perhaps they can at first have a state with no strong military in a transition period to eliminate teh chances of radicals hijacking it. As long as Israel cannot bully them by illegally taking their land, blockading them, bombing them at will, kidnapping people at night etc. This is what causes the oppression and suffering and hatred of Palestinians towards Israelis. If they had a proper state, IDF could not enter their homes at will, demolish them and arrest people who resisted it and put them on a military trial without charges. 

This would be a start.

What do you think?

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Minini]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It doesn't matter if the civilians are personally sweet or innocent people, the collective development of these people means that they will be ruled by Red psychopaths.

Sorry that's again not a given. Most nations faced wars before and and were less developed yet still managed to progress. I think you are undermining the impact of economical development, for example people in Turkey, UAE, Qatar and the more privileged are starting to fall into Orange even according to your theoretical framework. Do they have their biases in terms like societal issues? of course like the west as well. 

And still back to you point, rest of middle eastern countries are living under puppet dictatorships and are no longer a threat to Israel like Egypt and Jordan so that workaround does actually work. I mean like if what all you care about is just protecting Israel. 

[Raze]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So where is your Golden Age? Did the West steal it?

what? 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, resisting occupation.

And by "occupation" they mean Israel existing.

The reason why some use the term occupation is because Israel has an authoritarian checkpoint and security system in the west bank. Palestinians do not have freedom of movement and often critical emergency services, such as hospitals, are separated by military checkpoints. They are as well separated by a wall.

There's also that people in Gaza cannot leave.

Israel as well steals recourses from the people in the West, diverting the ground water to them. Meaning Israel has a disproportionate access to the water. 

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2022/02/israels-system-of-apartheid/

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

What Israel does to Palestine and especially Gaza (no Hamas in West Bank), is create the conditions for the radicals to rise up and become popular.

If Israel would cease this oppression and occupation, then Hamas would become less attractive.

I acknowledge all that. But it's too late now.

[Bobby_2021]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No. But it is a complex issue. The West is largely so developed because of two key factors: 1) highly favorable geography, 2) a geography which forced millenia of intense combat which drove an arms race pressure cooker which fueled development.

The West is so developed because they bullied themselves for 5000 years.

Nah the west wasted resources and sacrificed actual development bullying each others to death instead of cooperating with each other. They just got very good at bullying. I can give you that. That's still not development though.

The only reason it payed off in the end is because west found **new lands** to bully and siphon their wealth. They constantly have to find some others to bully, else the system will crumble. Like a textbook ponzi scheme.

Actual developed states are not interested in criminal domination like the west. They are interested in well being of their own people.

We are on the same page here in terms of the facts. It's a matter of how you choose to frame it. 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

The reason why some use the term occupation is because Israel has an authoritarian checkpoint and security system in the west bank. Palestinians do not have freedom of movement and often critical emergency services, such as hospitals, are separated by military checkpoints. They are as well separated by a wall.

I know. That's why I call it domination of a minority group.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

They just got very good at bullying. I can give you that. That's still not development though.

That IS development.

Quote

The only reason it payed off in the end is because west found **new lands** to bully and siphon their wealth. They constantly have to find some others to bully, else the system will crumble. Like a textbook ponzi scheme.

The West was pretty developed before 1500.

Finding new lands was the natural extension of their development. Of course plundering new land helped super-charge development.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That IS development.

Quote

I think social justice warriors in this forum have a different view of what they call "development".

We usually talk about moral development when we say a country is better or not.

To dominate, bully, conquer, etc you need technological development.

For example the Europeans were not morally more development than the Incas, but they had better technology.

Which is why they wiped them out.

Same with Homo Sapiens wiping out the Neanderthals.

Survival skills is 1 thing.

Moral development is another.

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

3 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I think social justice warriors in this forum have a different view of what they call "development".

We usually talk about moral development when we say a country is better or not.

To dominate, bully, conquer, etc you need technological development.

For example the Europeans were not morally more development than the Incas, but they had better technology.

Same with Homo Sapiens wiping out the Neanderthals.

Survival skills is 1 thing.

Moral development is another.

 

Most important for this discussion is the development of government structures, organization, and markets. But also science and tech.

It's hard to have high moral development when you are riding around on a camel and shitting in the sand.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

The domination of the west is collectively keeping the development of humanity as a whole in jeopardy. 

Even though they themselves get to brand themselves as higher developed, relatively speaking, it hinges upon dominating others. That's all.

The USSR could have choose to drop bombs and overthrow every single small ally of US.

But they held themselves to honorable restraint, the more developed position, got dominated in the end. 

Now we are stuck with this capitalist war machine. USSR should have never dissolved.

[Karmadhi]

I would say the West is morally more developed than the Middle East for sure.

But they seem to be massive hypocrites which pisses off a lot of people.

For some reason, people respect and appreciate more an honest bully like Putin than a lying, deceptive, hypocritcal partial bully like the USA.

The reason I do not know personally, just reporting it here.

If someone knows why, feel free to let us.

I am curious haha.