Israel / Palestine News Thread

[LSD-Rumi]

Why are we exactly defending Hammas now? Hammas proved their genocidal intent so clearly in the 7th of October. Anyone who is not clear about that should watch some online videos of that attack. You cannot easily not notice that when an innocent man is put on the ground to be slaughtered and when not readily being handed a knife, the terrorist grab a shovel and start smashing his throat with it.

 

[Leo Gura]

Green Zionism refers to the dogma and bias shared with Zionists.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

@Leo Gura

Concretely, what is your solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict, do you support a two state solution?

Or maybe Netanyahu’s solution where the Palestinians get an autonomous region where they have the powers of a state without the means to threaten Israel, such as an army.

Edited August 10 by Husseinisdoingfine

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

@Leo Gura

Concretely, what is your solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict, do you support a two state solution?

Or maybe Netanyahu’s solution where the Palestinians get an autonomous region where they have the powers of a state without the means to threaten Israel, such as an army.

I don't think there is any solution. War.

[Hardkill]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think there is any solution. War.

I think that Netanyahu and the radical right-wing officials in their government want a wide regional conflict in the middle east and don't mind if their actions or decisions lead to an all out nuclear war in the Middle East.

I am sure that they all would be okay if they contributed to the cause of WWIII in the future.

[Leo Gura]

4 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

I think that Netanyahu and the radical right-wing officials in their government want a wide regional conflict in the middle east and don't mind if their actions or decisions lead to an all out nuclear war in the Middle East.

I doubt they want that. That would be extremely bad for Israel. It would destroy their economy and development. It would be political suicide for them.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I doubt they want that. That would be extremely bad for Israel. It would destroy their economy and development. It would be political suicide for them.

Then, why do they keep going towards the brink of an all out war in the middle east?

Edited August 11 by Hardkill

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

Then, why do they keep going towards the brink of an all out war in the middle east?

Right-wingers gonna right-wing.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

People keep screeching for the two state solution, but the problem is that the Palestinians don’t want one.

They were offered a state on 5 occasions, and 70+% of Palestinian society doesn’t want a two state solution. And Palestinian (Iranian as well) leadership openly want to use a Palestinian state as a springboard to attack Israel. 
 

If Palestine does become a country, what’s stopping Iran from doing what it did to Iraq, and building their army for them, as well as creating proxy militias.

[Leo Gura]

Netanyahu is correct in that if you give Hamas a state (with a military), they will just use it to attack Israeli civilians. So of course he will not allow that.

Netanyahu would have to be a deluded leftist who thinks Hamas isn't genocidal to allow that.

It all boils down to leftists not understanding that Palestine is stage Red/Blue and Israel is way above.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Netanyahu is correct in that if you give Hamas a state (with a military), they will just use it to attack Israeli civilians. So of course he will not allow that.

Netanyahu would have to be a deluded leftist to thinks Hamas isn't genocidal to allow that.

Dont you think that Hamas is a by product of Israel oppression and if that oppression would cease, then Hamas would die as an ideology?

What makes Hamas to keep recruiting soldiers is that oppression.

If it was to cease, most people would not want to join them anymore.

What do you think of this?

 

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It all boils down to leftists not understanding that Palestine is stage Red/Blue and Israel is way above.

Israeli government currently is mostly blue.

I think you are not aware of how fundamentalist they are.

Previous Israeli governments have indeed been between orange and blue with some green.

This one is quite blue.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/smotrich-it-may-be-justified-to-starve-2-million-gazans-but-world-wont-let-us/

This is not how orange thinks.

Edited August 11 by Karmadhi

[Minini]

@Leo Gura do you disagree with him? I think he is a realist and has no reason to have a bias in this one. I understand your point is that they might become an existential threat if they were given a state but that would be the case of any guerilla militia, their role is to resist the status quo, not to seek governance and ruling because they are not fit for it. Nobody said a Palestinian state must entail a Hamas state. 

I think your judgment is highly based on pragmatism which could be true yes but this what idealists and leftists aspire to change instead of normalizing it

Edited August 11 by Minini

[royce]

“Welcome to Hell” is a report on the abuse and inhuman treatment of Palestinians held in Israeli custody since 7 October 2023. B’Tselem collected testimonies from 55 Palestinians held during that time and released, almost all with no charges. Their testimonies reveal the outcomes of the rushed transformation of more than a dozen Israeli prison facilities, military and civilian, into a network of camps dedicated to the abuse of inmates as a matter of policy. Facilities in which every inmate is deliberately subjected to harsh, relentless pain and suffering operate as de-facto torture camps.

__

B'Tselem was established in February 1989 by a large group of Israeli lawyers, doctors and academics with the support of a lobby of ten members of Knesset. Its objective was to document human rights violations in the occupied territories

__

https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell

Edited August 11 by royce

[Husseinisdoingfine]

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Dont you think that Hamas is a by product of Israel oppression

Yes, to a degree.

But all of the Middle East has low stages of development, so it's not all Israel's fault.

There are profound developmental problems baked into every Arab nation which breeds terrorism.

Quote

and if that oppression would cease, then Hamas would die as an ideology?

No.

Hamas wouldn't really stop until they kicked Israel out of the Middle East.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Minini said:

do you disagree with him?

Mearshiemer is being silly.

Of course Hamas is not a state right now. But the issue in question is what happens if we give Palestine a state, which Hamas would coopt.

The point is that Palestinians have such a low level of development that if they are given a state military they will just use it to wage a genocide.

It's like were sitting around the kitchen table debating whether we should give our psychotic uncle the key to a chest full of grenades and rocket launchers. And Mearshiemer is saying: it's okay because our uncle currently owns no weapons.

No one is claiming that a Palestinian state would succeed in exterminating Israel. But they would fire rockets and launch attacks that make Oct 7th look like a picnic.

Given how underdeveloped Palestine is, whatever government they have will get hijacked by terrorist Islamist radicals. There will not be a democracy there. Their whole government will be organized around the agenda of revenge upon Israel.

Israel is not under existential threat, but they under terrorist threat.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

@Leo Gura The point of having a military for Palestine is to make Israel face the consequences of its oppressive actions.

If you don't give them a legitimate military, then hamas terrorists would act as their defacto military.

A legitimate military for the sovereign state of Palestine could help keep even hamas in check. But instead they played 3d chess and directly funded hamas.

A state not having autonomy over itself will always regress back to lower stages. Hamas will not be the military wing for the sovereign state of Palestine.

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

@Leo Gura The point of having a military for Palestine is to make Israel face the consequences of its oppressive actions.

That is the core problem.

They will use that military for revenge against Israel.

Quote

Hamas will not be the military wing for the sovereign state of Palestine.

Radicals will hijack that military. All the people serving in that military will want revenge. How is this not obvious to you?

The are not going to have modern professional military chain of command govered by human rights regulations. It will be a radical Islamist genocidal ban of thugs with tanks and rocket launchers.

Edited August 11 by Leo Gura

[Minini]

17 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Given how underdeveloped Palestine is, whatever government they have will get hijacked by terrorist Islamist radicals. There will not be a democracy there. Their whole government will be organized around the agenda of revenge upon Israel.

that is not a given. there are possible workarounds to prevent this scenario, actually the west has already been doing this for decades, planting puppet dictatorships in areas they want to control from afar. what's unique in this scenario is that israel does not just want control, they want the land itself as well. 

Edited August 11 by Minini