Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Something Funny]

@Bobby_2021 i feel like that was not the point if the discussion. We were talking about the psychology of Hamas.

[Bobby_2021]

3 minutes ago, Something Funny said:

@Bobby_2021 i feel like that was not the point if the discussion. We were talking about the psychology of Hamas.

Hamas is a non state actor and you are comparing it with the state of Israel.

It's not an apples to apples comparison, unless it's equivalent state counterpart is involved.

[Something Funny]

7 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Hamas is a non state actor and you are comparing it with the state of Israel.

It's not an apples to apples comparison, unless it's equivalent state counterpart is involved.

It might as well be one, considering how it's running things in Palestine. If Palestinian government could keep Hamas in check, then sure, but that's not the case.

Edited August 10 by Something Funny

[Minini]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Even if you put them at Blue, Israel would be Orange/Blue/Green, so higher.

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

.You are falling into false equivalencies. Their will is not the same.

Their will has not been the same because one side has been oppressing the other. You just can't dismiss context out of the reaction

I honestly do not think you have studied the older history and origins of Zionism that it is has always based on ethnic cleansing. expansionism and supremacy. Neither have you been following closely all the atrocities the IDF soldiers have been committing there on a daily basis, there have been Nazi level stuff happening and their congress was literally just debating if they are allowed to rape Palestinian detainees and the rapist just went mask-free pretending to be a hero! Sounds like a very developed society indeed. Who promotes systematic rape now? 

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-hamas-war-idf-palestinian-prisoner-alleged-rape-sde-teinman-abuse-protest/

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20240809-israel-systematically-uses-rape-sexual-assault-against-palestinian-detainees-rights-group-says/

Also Hamas being red is irrelevant because it was Israel that created the conditions for them to arise. Red stage happens due to lack of security and as result of being under constant threat of violence. What is more 'evil' than red, is what creates red. 

Edited August 10 by Minini

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, minus the gas chambers.

May I ask what draws you to this conclusion?

1 massacre?

You know Russians did a similar thing in Bucha for example, yet nobody says that Russians want to do a genocide Holocaust type on Ukranians

Massacres happen in tons of wars.

Regarding Hamas rhetoric, I have not seen them say that they want to holocaust Israelis, only that they want to destroy Israel as an institution, which would entail ethnic cleansing.

If there are sources of Hamas leadership say "kill all Jews", then I will change my mind.

The Israelis here are welcome to provide such sources if they want.

The fundamental issue here is that so many Palestinians have been through so much under Israeli atrocities that I cannot help but understand their desire for revenge.

However, I do not feel like Israelis have went through the same suffering to make me understand what they are have done to Palestine.

The best example is 2014, where basically no Israeli civilian got killed but 1500 Palestinian civilians and around 500 children got killed.

Those people probably were involved in the October attack.

I think in my case it is Green being empathetic to Red, which is what you have said in your Spiral Dynamics video.

I do not know.

I can admit that Hamas is worse than Israeli people like Yair Lapid or Benny Gantz. But I do not think they are worse than far right people like Ben Gvir or Smotrich. The only difference is that they have other more moderate Israelis and the rest of the world holding them in check. Hamas has nobody to hold them back.

If Ben Gvir was dictator of Israel and had no chains from the West, I think he would not be much different from Hamas.

 

Edited August 10 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

I swear, you Palestine warriors are pointless to reason with. Just a Green verison of Zionism.

Enjoy your dogma.

Edited August 10 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I swear, you Palestine warriors are pointless to reason with. Just a Green verison of Zionism.

Enjoy your dogma.

We do not have skin in the game unlike Zionisnts.

Our only bias is social justice and  naive empathy for oppressed people.

Nobody here says that Hamas is a force for good (Zionists say it about Israel).

Nobody here says that Hamas are not terrorists (Zionists will never say Israelis are terrorists).

Nobody here says that what Hamas did is justified or okay (Zionists do it).

So it is not a fair comparison.

You can call us biased, sure.

But not equivalent.

A true equivalence would be if people here said Hamas is good and Israel is bad.

Which is the opposite statement of Zionists.

 

Edited August 10 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

We do not have skin in the game unlike Zionisnts.

Our only bias is social justice and  naive empathy for oppressed people.

Exactly!

All the errors of the left come from this one innocent-seeming bias.

When you place anything above truth -- including social justice -- what you will end up with is falsehood. When are you learn that lesson?

Social justice is not truth.

Edited August 10 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

@Leo Gura

Nobody here says that Hamas is a force for good (Zionists say it about Israel).

Nobody here says that Hamas are not terrorists (Zionists will never say Israelis are terrorists).

Nobody here says that what Hamas did is justified or okay (Zionists do it).

So it is not a fair comparison.

You can call us biased, sure.

But not equivalent.

A true equivalence would be if people here said Hamas is good and Israel is bad.

Which is the opposite statement of Zionists.

But I agree with you calling us social justice warriors.

It is hard to grow out of it.

I am 26, still young.

I started watching your content 4 years ago and I was mostly Orange with some Green.

Now I feel like I have evolved into solid green.

It is now a challenge to evolve into Yellow.

I will try.

There is not much Yellow material out there and impossible to meet Yellow people.

I am surrounded by Green people.

 

Edited August 10 by Karmadhi

[Minini]

The truth of what? That Hamas is red and dangerous? We can agree on this. I think my point is getting rid of Hamas ( if it symbolizes red stage behavior) without getting rid of what CREATES it is the fundamental  problem. 

Edited August 10 by Minini

[Bobby_2021]

All the Militias are resistence movements. They are reactionaries. They react to Israeli occupation.

A reactionary doesn't have the competence or real intentions to actually commit a genocide.

A genocide needs remarkable planning and execution to pull off. Few can do it even if they actually wanted to. Hitler deviced a remarkable machine for carrying out a genocide. A lot of thought and planning went into it. Same with Gaza. A reactionary mind wouldn't be able to pull this off. 

These militias hate Israel and with all this hate, they wouldn't be able to pull off an actual genocide. 

Wars? Yeah.

Terrorism? Yeah.

Bombings? Yeah.

Genocide? No.

These resistance movements don't go out of their way to target civilians, which they absolutely CAN. 

These are not merely stage red cavemen. Their capacity to inflict damage is significant. 

Edited August 10 by Bobby_2021

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Israel just struck a school killing nearly a hundred people.

⚠️ Warning ⚠️:Following video contains gore

https://t.me/warmonitors/26609

https://x.com/abujomaagaza/status/1822244133051793489

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Children in Gaza are being sniped.

 

[Bobby_2021]

2 hours ago, Something Funny said:

It might as well be one, considering how it's running things in Palestine. If Palestinian government could keep Hamas in check, then sure, but that's not the case.

Even if Palestine is a state, hamas would simply be a political party, like Zionists maybe.

 

15 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Israel just struck a school killing nearly a hundred people.

⚠️ Warning ⚠️:Following video contains gore

https://t.me/warmonitors/26609

https://x.com/abujomaagaza/status/1822244133051793489

 

Not shocked anymore!

[zazen]

 

21 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

Israel just struck a school killing nearly a hundred people.

⚠️ Warning ⚠️:Following video contains gore

https://t.me/warmonitors/26609

https://x.com/abujomaagaza/status/1822244133051793489

 

US, Qatar and co were mediating for a potential ceasefire deal just yesterday. Odd that these atrocities occur at such times - possibly to nuke the deal and derail it.

[zazen]

On 8/9/2024 at 3:20 PM, hundreth said:

There is no negotiating with Hamas. Both of them greenlit October 7th, they are dead men walking.

Justice to Palestinians is the complete elimination of Israel. By that metric, there is no path forward. That is the reality of the situation. You can't really apply what happened in South Africa here.

Israel has attempted to move towards two states, and was met with bad faith and attacks. They attempted to leave Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas and attacks. No good deed goes unpunished with the Palestinians.

And so, with this toxic relationship you see what unfolds.

 

On 8/5/2024 at 9:25 AM, zazen said:

I think the middle ground here is that both have legitimate grievances and histories from which they see the situation. Both sides have gone about those legitimate grievances in illegitimate ways. Things aren't binary (purely good vs evil) but more so a continuum or spectrum. It's easier to see that Israel are leaning more towards the negative end of the spectrum in this scenario. The scenario has radicalised Palestinians, and the larger power has had more of a hand in shaping that scenario. That doesn't absolve Palestinians from any responsibility, but there are limits to responsibility. Agency and choices are constrained by the reality of occupation, economic deprivation and lack of sovereignty. Can we get angry at a gardener in a desert trying to grow flowers and failing? Or a bird with clipped wings trying but failing to fly? Their first priority is to rid themselves of their environmental constraints - and that is literally in their right.

The West's very own laws rule that Israel is an occupying force which means the occupying group have certain inalienable rights including defence, even armed defence. If the West chest beats the supremacy of its development and heading of the current world order and international system - then don't have that same system tell a dispossessed group of people that its in their right to defend themselves against a occupation, then gaslight them about their uprisings. It's not up to the occupied group to show the world they deserve not to be occupied.

Both sides also aren't monoliths, there are factions within Zionism and Hamas / resistance groups with differing views. Theres a old video of one of the founders of Hamas saying they don't hate Jews but only have a problem with Zionism itself. But being realistic, no ones going to see the Israeli state disappear now that its established, and anyone hoping or planning on it aren't serious partners for peace. The video Leo shared of one of the current Hamas leaders spouting for the erasure of Israel despite not having the capability to do so, exposes their intention once they do have that capability ie a Palestinian state with a military. So of course Israel would thwart that. All serious players in the region know Hamas in its current form with its current rhetoric from some of its leaders simply can't be part of a serious governance structure after all this.

While it's clear that both Israelis and Palestinians have made choices that have influenced their current situations, it's crucial to understand that Palestinians are living under conditions defined by occupation. This is not just a matter of opinion but a legal principle recognised globally.  The argument that Palestinians should prioritise peace and state building to gain statehood overlooks the fundamental fact that their rights as an occupied people are non-negotiable and not contingent upon proving their "worthiness" for statehood.

The West, and the international community have established legal norms precisely to protect those under occupation and to prevent this kind of conditional justice.  The hypotheticals being debated of Hamas wanting to genocide are contentious simply for being hypothetical and the fact that peoples objectives change when conditions change - that said, its wiser to listen to threats than not. And Hamas leaders have threatened not genocide out right but to get rid of Israel as a state - doing so would effectively result in the killing of countless civilians. During the era of Jim Crow laws in the American South - hypothetical cases were also made for fear of retribution and genocide. Events like Nat Turner rebellion (parallel to todays October 7th) fed into those fears. This rhetoric helped maintain such a unjust system of dehumanisation and lack of sovereignty.

Many Palestinians seek justice, freedom, and a state of their own which are simply aspirations that are enshrined in international law. If international law hadn't stated these are their rights maybe they would manage their expectations and not fight for those rights. But to have those rights be their in black and white then gas light them for fighting for them and framing them as barbaric terrorists is vile and ironically un-civilised. Civilisation isn't just about skyscrapers, gadgets and gizmos you have at home, its about how you interact with other societies beyond your borders - and often we see that Western nations interact with the global south in a win-lose extractive dynamic through a capitalist system they pioneered.

Blaming Palestinians for not having achieved peace while under occupation is akin to blaming a person for not thriving while being held captive. Their first and foremost priority, as it would be for any group in their position, is to achieve their fundamental rights, including the end of occupation. Only when these rights are secured can we realistically expect the conditions necessary for long-term peace and prosperity to take root. It's simply not up to Israel or the West to decide when Palestinians are "ready" for statehood. The international legal framework already recognises their rights - it's up to the global community to ensure those rights are respected and fulfilled.

Edited August 10 by zazen

[Minini]

10 minutes ago, zazen said:

 

While it's clear that both Israelis and Palestinians have made choices that have influenced their current situations, it's crucial to understand that Palestinians are living under conditions defined by occupation. This is not just a matter of opinion but a legal principle recognised globally.  The argument that Palestinians should prioritise peace and state building to gain statehood overlooks the fundamental fact that their rights as an occupied people are non-negotiable and not contingent upon proving their "worthiness" for statehood.

The West, and the international community have established legal norms precisely to protect those under occupation and to prevent this kind of conditional justice.  The hypotheticals being debated of Hamas wanting to genocide are contentious simply because it is a hypothetical and we peoples objectives change when conditions change - that said, its wise to listen to threats than not, and Hamas leaders have threatened not genocide out right but to get rid of Israel as a state- but effectively in order to that would result in the killing of countless civilians.  

Many Palestinians seek justice, freedom, and a state of their own which are simply aspirations that are enshrined in international law. If international law hadn't stated these are their rights maybe they would manage their expectations and not fight for those rights. But to have those rights be there in black and white then gas light them for fighting for them and framing them as barbaric terrorists is vile and ironically un-civilised. Civilisation isn't just about skyscrapers, gadgets and gizmos you have at home, its about how you interact with other societies beyond your borders - and often we see that Western nation interact with the global south in a win-lose extractive dynamic through a capitalist system they pioneered.

Blaming Palestinians for not having achieved peace while under occupation is akin to blaming a person for not thriving while being held captive. Their first and foremost priority, as it would be for any group in their position, is to achieve their fundamental rights, including the end of occupation. Only when these rights are secured can we realistically expect the conditions necessary for long-term peace and prosperity to take root. It's simply not up to Israel or the West to decide when Palestinians are "ready" for statehood. The international legal framework already recognises their rights - it's up to the global community to ensure those rights are respected and fulfilled.

well said. 

[Bobby_2021]

Israel is overcompensating for the collective trauma of the Jewish psyche from the persecution they had to endure over the years.

Now that has given rise to Islamic resistance militias which causes even more suffering and trauma for a whole new generation of people.

Even Hitler was deeply hurt in his childhood which led to overcompensate with his genocidal crusades.

We are still suffering from the actions of Hitler, to be frank.

Someone in the whole cycle has to take responsibility to end this with themselves instead of passing on the trauma to some other people.

[Minini]

22 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Someone in the whole cycle has to take responsibility to end this with themselves instead of passing on the trauma to some other people.

They won't because the responsibility lies within those with supremacist ideologies of far right-nationalism including Nazis, ISIS or ultra Zionists. They just don't see other people as of equal worth and benefit from getting rid of whatever they see as "lower", let alone feel empathy and take an initiative to to stop it. 

Edited August 10 by Minini

[aurum]

5 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I am surrounded by Green people.

That is how you evolve to Yellow.

You’ll get tired of Green bullshit eventually.