Israel / Palestine News Thread

[hundreth]

19 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Dude you guys are rich first world people that live super well. People were partying smoking weed when the attack happened. People chill on beaches and overall have great services and social security.

The civilian death toll in the last 20 years has been super low (prior to the october attacks), probably more Israelis died from suicide or obesity compared to from Palestinians.

That is why we have so little empathy for them. because most of them didnt endure any hardships from the other side

Israelis live well because that's their priority, living well. Palestinians have prioritized justice and the elimination of Jews over their well being, and the results show.

Palestinians receive billions in aid, and have utilized almost none of it for their well being. That isn't because of Israel.

The irony is that if Palestinians took the money and invested into the population at large, Israelis wouldn't be so paranoid about giving them statehood. Palestinians have it backwards - If we get a state and our demands met, there will be peace. What really would work is: If there is peace, you will have a state and get your demands met.

Btw Gaza has had the same beautiful beach, and has weed and parties as well. 

Edited August 7 by hundreth

[hundreth]

 

This is a really great interview which explains some of the realities of the region as well as the Israeli rationale and how they reached this point.

I don't agree with everything he says, but this gives a window into the thought process at the highest levels of Israeli leadership as well as the population at large. Some of you had questions about how and why Israel behaves the way it does, and I think he does a very good job of explaining it.

 

Edited August 7 by hundreth

[royce]

Video of IDF soldiers raping a Palestinian prisoner behind shields has been leaked.

https://x.com/BTCUSD250K/status/1821020620047393172

[Nivsch]

Edited August 7 by Nivsch

[royce]

Israel/Gaza: Statement by the High Representative on remarks of Minister Smotrich regarding starving civilians

 

https://www.eeas.europa.eu/eeas/israelgaza-statement-high-representative-remarks-minister-smotrich-regarding-starving-civilians_en?channel=eeas_press_alerts&date=2024-08-07&newsid=0&langid=en&source=mail

[Husseinisdoingfine]

@Leo Gura

There is a really profound lecture that I think you should check out of radical thoughts in Israeli Politics. Really worth your time, excellent lecture.

 

[hundreth]

Another good interview from an Israeli perspective which differs from Gadi Taub who I posted earlier. He is not nearly as opportunistic in terms of war mongering and land grabbing, but shares the same framework of reality around the challenges facing Israel.

Edited August 8 by hundreth

[hundreth]

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/pa-has-only-itself-blame

Quote

The authors cite the PA’s financial troubles as a primary cause of its dysfunction and blame them on Israel. What they neglect to mention, however, is that in 2018, the last year that the PA made its budget public, $350 million—seven percent of the total—was reserved to pay terrorists who killed or injured civilians in Israel or members of the Israel Defense Forces, and to pay the families of those terrorists. This practice of “pay for slay” is mandated by Palestinian Authority Laws Nos. 14 and 19 of 2004, which obligate the PA to pay a monthly salary to anyone incarcerated in Israeli prisons for “his participation in the struggle against the occupation,” as well as to the families of those who die within the context of this struggle—a definition that the PA applies to many Palestinians who have carried out terrorist attacks. No fair assessment of the PA’s cash crisis can overlook this fact.

Many of you don't really have a clue as to who Israel's supposed peace partners are. You project your own values onto them, and in doing so escape reality.

[Nivsch]

37 minutes ago, hundreth said:

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/pa-has-only-itself-blame

Many of you don't really have a clue as to who Israel's supposed peace partners are. You project your own values onto them, and in doing so escape reality.

Is peace between Orange (center of gravity) and red-Blue society possible just out of best intentions and actions (say settlements are stopped forever), Or that the differences in spiral stages will prevent peace no matter what?

Edited August 8 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

4 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Is peace between Orange (center of gravity) and red-Blue society possible just out of best intentions and actions (say settlements are stopped forever), Or that the differences in spiral stages will prevent peace no matter what?

Yes, there are several surrounding nations with similar spiral stages who are at peace with Israel.

The Palestinians are different. Before October 7, Gazans had a higher quality of life index than citizens of Cairo. 

Their highest value and national identity is the rejection of Israel. There's nothing you can do about that.

[gambler]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

The Palestinians are different. Before October 7, Gazans had a higher quality of life index than citizens of Cairo.

Gaza had lower GDP per capita than Cairo, higher unemployment, less comprehensive healthcare services and facilities available, worse healthcare infrastructure, more strained healthcare services, higher shortages of medical supplies, higher infant mortality rate, higher rate of poverty, lower life expectancy, lower literacy rates, worse educational infrastructure and institutions, lower enrollment rates, lesser access to educational facilities, poorer quality of education, higher resource limitations, more challenging economic conditions and restrictions, higher cost of living, poorer housing conditions due to damage and economic constraints, worse access to clean water and sanitation, worse water infrastructure, higher political instability and insecurity, higher frequency of electricity shortages and interruptions and the same is true of other utilities. According to chatgpt, "Overall, before October 7, Cairo generally had better living conditions compared to Gaza in terms of economic stability, healthcare, education, and infrastructure.".

Edited August 9 by gambler

[gambler]

43 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Their highest value and national identity is the rejection of Israel. There's nothing you can do about that.

Remember this was true of the PLO/PA, and that they had in their charter the extermination of Israel and condoned terrorism. However, now they have shifted away from terrorism, condemn it, removed that part of their charter, and has shown recognizing the right of Israel to exist. Israel however, has never shown a formal recognition of the right of Palestinians to be sovereign. This is something that can be, through facade, believed to be negotiated, but really, it's Judea and Samaria.

Edited August 9 by gambler

[Minini]

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

Yes, there are several surrounding nations with similar spiral stages who are at peace with Israel.

The Palestinians are different. Before October 7, Gazans had a higher quality of life index than citizens of Cairo. 

Couldn't it be because those Palestinians have been directly impacted on a daily by Israel's existence since 48 and not because they are 'different'? 

Also, don't forget that peace between Israel and other middle eastern countries is represented by authoritarian regimes. 

[zazen]

On 8/7/2024 at 4:14 PM, hundreth said:

Palestinians have it backwards - If we get a state and our demands met, there will be peace. What really would work is: If there is peace, you will have a state and get your demands met.

So Israel just assassinated a more rational political negotiator from Hamas and now have Sinwar who is way more emotional and vengeful as the new leader of Hamas - yet say they expect peace before statehood. 

It's actually Israel that has it backwards. Justice is more a prerequisite to peace than the other way round (as has been seen historically - South African apartheid, US civil rights movement, Northern Irelands Good Friday agreement to name a few)

Peace isn't just the absence of conflict but the presence of fairness (human rights), equality (not of outcome like woke people demand) and the resolution of legitimate grievances (that when go unaddressed lead to illegitimate avenues to addressing those legitimate grievances such as terrorism).

People under occupation aren't supposed to play some 'How to win friends and influence people' game where they need to prove their worth. The very international system of law that the West pioneered in setting up states who is occupied and what their rights are. These aren't negotiable. Yet, Israel thinks otherwise and stands alone at every UN resolution with US in it's corner embarrassing itself. They lay thick the hypocrisy that can be cut with a knife when the values and system of law they claim to up hold in reality aren't aligned with what their actions show.

Edited August 9 by zazen

[Raze]

@hundreth

@numbersinarow
 

 In 1953 the IDF entered the village and Qibya and killed 69 Palestinian civilian villagers, two thirds of whom were women and children

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qibya_massacre

In 1982 IDF allowed Lebanese Christian militias to enter a refugee camp and for 40 hours straight massacre between 1,300-3,500 Palestinians and Lebanese civilians, the vast majority of the dead were women, children and elderly men. The IDF did not prevent the massacre and instead guarded the entrance and exists of the camps to not allow anyone to leave and instead uses flares to help the militia members.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

 
 

Because these operations targeted civilians, would you consider this terrorism?

Edited August 9 by Raze

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, zazen said:

People under occupation aren't supposed to play some 'How to win friends and influence people' game where they need to prove their worth

Why Palestinians are always under someone else's occupation?

Before they were under Jordan (still today!), Egypt and Ottoman.

Why didn't they succeed to have sovereignty?

Isn't the responsibility to their situation is on them at least half way?

Edited August 9 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

12 hours ago, hundreth said:

Yes, there are several surrounding nations with similar spiral stages who are at peace with Israel.

The Palestinians are different. Before October 7, Gazans had a higher quality of life index than citizens of Cairo. 

Their highest value and national identity is the rejection of Israel. There's nothing you can do about that.

But Egypt and Jordan are Blue (maybe even some orange already in cog) countries. Emirates are Blue-Orange. Close enough to reach understandings.

Palestinians are Blue minus at most I want to be fair to the most innocent civilians but their regimes and their supporters are very red and this is quite far from Israel.

Red does not want neither peace nor order. His life meaning is idealistic imperialistic if to put it that way. Edit: Yes compatible to what you said at the end.

Edited August 9 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

13 hours ago, gambler said:

Remember this was true of the PLO/PA, and that they had in their charter the extermination of Israel and condoned terrorism. However, now they have shifted away from terrorism, condemn it, removed that part of their charter, and has shown recognizing the right of Israel to exist. Israel however, has never shown a formal recognition of the right of Palestinians to be sovereign. This is something that can be, through facade, believed to be negotiated, but really, it's Judea and Samaria.

Oh the charter, the beloved reformed charter. I guess all of their words, actions and teachings are meaningless then because they updated language in their charter.

[hundreth]

11 hours ago, Minini said:

Couldn't it be because those Palestinians have been directly impacted on a daily by Israel's existence since 48 and not because they are 'different'? 

Also, don't forget that peace between Israel and other middle eastern countries is represented by authoritarian regimes. 

I don't dispute that, and wasn't mean to say their are "inherently" different - but the condition now is what I said. The society's highest moral virtue is the elimination of Israel.

[hundreth]

5 hours ago, zazen said:

So Israel just assassinated a more rational political negotiator from Hamas and now have Sinwar who is way more emotional and vengeful as the new leader of Hamas - yet say they expect peace before statehood. 

It's actually Israel that has it backwards. Justice is more a prerequisite to peace than the other way round (as has been seen historically - South African apartheid, US civil rights movement, Northern Irelands Good Friday agreement to name a few)

Peace isn't just the absence of conflict but the presence of fairness (human rights), equality (not of outcome like woke people demand) and the resolution of legitimate grievances (that when go unaddressed lead to illegitimate avenues to addressing those legitimate grievances such as terrorism).

People under occupation aren't supposed to play some 'How to win friends and influence people' game where they need to prove their worth. The very international system of law that the West pioneered in setting up states who is occupied and what their rights are. These aren't negotiable. Yet, Israel thinks otherwise and stands alone at every UN resolution with US in it's corner embarrassing itself. They lay thick the hypocrisy that can be cut with a knife when the values and system of law they claim to up hold in reality aren't aligned with what their actions show.

There is no negotiating with Hamas. Both of them greenlit October 7th, they are dead men walking.

Justice to Palestinians is the complete elimination of Israel. By that metric, there is no path forward. That is the reality of the situation. You can't really apply what happened in South Africa here.

Israel has attempted to move towards two states, and was met with bad faith and attacks. They attempted to leave Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas and attacks. No good deed goes unpunished with the Palestinians.

And so, with this toxic relationship you see what unfolds.