Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

55 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

Isn't it Ironic to say this as a Canadian, considering your history?

Where is the surprise?

The accusations here are rooted 90% in psychology and self-serving motivations and maybe 5-10% at most in real history.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Hatfort]

10 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

Isn't it Ironic to say this as a Canadian, considering your history?

Yeah, that's recognized from today's perspective as a wrongdoing to the native Americans. There can be reparations, but there's no going back, that's the reality of history. The occupation of Palestine is current history and it's right now when it can be opposed.

[numbersinarow]

12 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Where is the surprise?

The accusations here are rooted 90% in psychology and self-serving motivations and maybe 5-10% at most from real history.

It's clear that canada got away with it and that they CAN displace the savages who want to kill LGBTQ people and who you need to be low consciousness (OR above green in very certain circumstance) to sympathize with.

[lina]

24 minutes ago, Vercingetorix said:

Isn't it Ironic to say this as a Canadian, considering your history?

Canada, USA and Australia were all settlers colonies that had no right to exist either. The difference here is that these countries have finally given citizenship to the local population and are no longer actively trying to genocide them. That was something in the past that cannot be changed. On the other hand, Israel at the moment is actively committing a genocide and is still denying the right of return for the local population. See the difference? Israel started as a settler colony at a time most people were fighting for liberation, it was just too late for them to join their other settler friends. 

Edited August 4 by lina

[Nivsch]

7 minutes ago, lina said:

Israel at the moment is actively committing a genocide

And the evidences of genocide are?

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

[MKAUS]

44 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

And the evidences of genocide are?

Dude you are just very self bias and blind. Wake up. This argument is just pointless.

[MKAUS]

58 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

Yeah, that's recognized from today's perspective as a wrongdoing to the native Americans. There can be reparations, but there's no going back, that's the reality of history. The occupation of Palestine is current history and it's right now when it can be opposed.

Exactly.

I say it again, it just boggles my mind how seemingly intelligent people frame this conflict.

This conflict is a good litmus test for bad judgment and biased individuals.

[MKAUS]

2 hours ago, Bandman said:

Take your leftard glasses off and stop thinking of people as sad little victims in their purest identity. Of course the Palestinians are the victims now, but you don't realize that Hamas are not some anarchist Liberation Army or something. They are conservative muslims who believe that the End Times will not come untill all jews have been killed by the muslims in a final LOTR esque epic war. Of course they are fighting for the freedom of the Palestinians, and that is good, but just take your leftard glasses off for once and realize that all people are evil all across the globe. That doesn't mean you shouldnt be left leaning anymore, just be truthful to what is happening.

Hamas, or all people being evil, as you put it is irrelevant.

The Israelis are devils. Hamas are devils.

youre a devil. I’m a devil.

Now - how does that change the facts since 1948?

Since you mentioned Hamas are conversative Muslims who want to fight a war for the end of times.

Let’s remind everyone that Israelis are the “chosen ppl”. Their behaviour fits it in with this doctrine. Let’s do as we please. God is with us. It’s inconceivable that we are in the wrong.

Edited August 4 by MKAUS

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Minini said:

Even if the typing of spiral dynamic stages was accurate, it's irrelevant in considering the morality of any situation because without context you cannot pass a judgment.

You're not wrong. But after a certain point sheer pragmatics will prevail. And the pragmatics of the current situation are that if Palestine insists on acting out Red, even if it's the Israeli's fault, they will simply be exterminated. So for their own good they need to stop the genocidal threats and rhetoric. Yes it's unfair, but geopolitics isn't fair. Weak people lose their land. That's how it has always worked, and still works today. Morality is not enough to save land, you also need the military power to hold it, which Palestine will not have.

Edited August 4 by Leo Gura

[PurpleTree]

117 pages of back and forth arguing 

 

impressive

[Joshe]

1 minute ago, PurpleTree said:

117 pages of back and forth arguing 

It’s useful for some. 

[Minini]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're not wrong. But after a certain point sheer pragmatics will prevail. And the pragmatics of the current situation are that if Palestine insists on acting out Red, even if it's the Israeli's fault, they will simply be exterminated. So for their own good they need to stop the genocidal threats and rhetoric. Yes it's unfair, but geopolitics isn't fair. Weak people lose their land. That's how it has always worked, and still works today. Morality is not enough to save land, you also need the military power to hold it, which Palestine will not have.

Unfortunately that is true. But the problem in this conflict that even when Palestinians give up resistance like the PA for example, they get nothing in return but the continuation of land theft and unserious attempts of making peace. So it seems to them like a lose-lose situation. 

https://thecradle.co/articles-id/25387 

[Raze]

4 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

It's clear that canada got away with it and that they CAN displace the savages who want to kill LGBTQ people and who you need to be low consciousness (OR above green in very certain circumstance) to sympathize with.

Actually, people at any stage can have sympathy for natives who are mass murdered and their lands stolen 

[gambler]

numbers wants to bring the Muslims a slow Auschwitz. That’s actually funny in a comedic sense. What an individual. 

Edited August 5 by gambler

[yetineti]

@Leo Gura So what’s the middle ground now? I understand your points now, and earlier in the conflict. But where do they meet? Has anything changed, in your mind?

Before it seems more like you empathized with Hamas or at least disliked the IDF’s handling.

[PurpleTree]

8 hours ago, Joshe said:

It’s useful for some. 

it’s maybe useful for some or useful for none, some have an attitude, some have a gun and some have a bb gun

btw i talked to bibis mom

she wants to give me iron dome

i told her my thing is wide and long

but she said she is high and strong, and likes my cologne

then i cried and mourned, for dead children and human suffering it’s gut wrenching man

but i quickly forgot about that, because of tiktok and instagram, i have a short attention span

 

(i‘m talking in rhymes from now on btw)

[zazen]

I think the middle ground here is that both have legitimate grievances and histories from which they see the situation. Both sides have gone about those legitimate grievances in illegitimate ways. Things aren't binary (purely good vs evil) but more so a continuum or spectrum. It's easier to see and say that Israel are leaning more towards the negative end of the spectrum in this scenario - regardless of how radical or what stage colour the other side is. The scenario has radicalised them, and the larger power has had more of a hand in shaping that scenario. That doesn't absolve the other side from any responsibility, but there are limits to self agency. Agency and choices are constrained by the reality of occupation, economic deprivation and lack of sovereignty. Can we get angry at a gardener in a desert trying to grow flowers and failing? Or a bird with clipped wings trying but failing to fly? Their first priority is to rid themselves of their environmental constraints - and that is literally in their right.

The West's very own laws rule that Israel is an occupying force which means the occupying group have certain inalienable rights including defence, even armed defence. If the West chest beats the supremacy of its development and heads the current world order and international system - then don't have that same system tell a dispossessed group of people that its in their right to defend themselves against a occupation, then gaslight them about their uprisings. It's not up to the occupied group to show the world they deserve not to be occupied because ''they have ascended to stage orange rationality over radicalism or religionism''. Thats  a universal right. They aren't to be subjected to some demeaning test like some kids who need to show their grown ups. 

Both sides also aren't monoliths, there are factions within Zionism and Hamas / resistance groups with differing views. Theres a old video of one of the founders of Hamas saying they don't hate Jews but only have a problem with Zionism itself. But being realistic, no ones going to see the Israeli state disappear now that its established, and anyone hoping or planning on it aren't serious partners for peace. The video Leo shared of one of the current Hamas leaders spouting for the erasure of Israel despite not having the capability to do so, exposes their intention once they do have that capability ie a Palestinian state with a military. So of course Israel would thwart that. All serious players in the region know Hamas in its current form with its current rhetoric from some of its leaders simply can't be part of a serious governance structure after all this.

Edited August 5 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, yetineti said:

@Leo Gura So what’s the middle ground now? I understand your points now, and earlier in the conflict. But where do they meet? Has anything changed, in your mind?

There isn't a middle ground. Israel will kill many more Palestinians and destroy all of Gaza.

I just wish America did not enable them.

Quote

Before it seems more like you empathized with Hamas or at least disliked the IDF’s handling.

I still regard Zionists as lying devils in this issue. They have the responsibilty to stop abusing a minority group.

Edited August 5 by Leo Gura

[numbersinarow]

10 hours ago, Raze said:

Actually, people at any stage can have sympathy for extremely homophobic, vastly immoral natives who are mass murdered (in the exact way they support, making this dantian justice) and their lands stolen by a more evolved tribe

"Actually, people at any stage, with sufficient brainwashing, can think a minority group should not do the regular military response to an attack, based on either xenophobia or racism."

Well yes that's what I've been saying.

Edited August 5 by numbersinarow