Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

@MKAUS Innocent people who get killed in an uncareful enough war against terorrists is far from being the way you describe it.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Raze]

Quote

NYT: Israeli Generals, Low on Munitions, Want a Truce in Gaza

Israel’s military leadership wants a cease-fire with Hamas in case a bigger war breaks out in Lebanon, security officials say. It has also concluded that a truce would be the swiftest way to free hostages.

https://archive.is/Xt8k0
 

Quote

CNN: Israeli military official says Hamas cannot be destroyed, as rift with Netanyahu widens

https://www.cnn.com/2024/06/20/middleeast/hagari-netanyahu-destroy-hamas-israel-intl/index.html

[Nivsch]

29 minutes ago, MKAUS said:

Your point here is a red herring.

As per the Israeli narrative since 1948. Commit unspeakable crimes and cry victim while pointing “over there”.

Best we end it here.

Well if that is the attitude I can't convince you otherwise. Try when you have time to think what you as a citizen or a soldier of a country treatened from 5 directions would think.

[MKAUS]

Just now, Nivsch said:

@MKAUS Innocent people who get killed in an uncareful enough war against terorrists is far from being the way you describe it.

Try to enter the shoes of a country who is treatened from 6 directions for decades and has to fight terrorists every single day.

No.

I’ll give you just 1 example from a possible 1000. In 2018 the Gazan’s organised a peaceful non violent march to break the siege.
 

According to the human rights reports (look it up), during this march toward the border, Israel shot medics, children and disabled people.

Israel was not under attack by militants in this case (like I said, 1 example from 1000’s). The Gazans were attempting non-violent resistance.

What does Israel do? It shoots and kills disabled people. This is the documented record.

Reap what you sow.

[hundreth]

9 hours ago, Raze said:

So would you consider if orders are given specifically to target civilians that is terrorism?

Yes, I would.

[MKAUS]

Just now, Nivsch said:

Well if that is the attitude I can't convince you otherwise. Try when you have time to think what you as a citizen or a soldier of a country treatened from 5 directions would think.

Yes 5 countries woke up one day and said “let’s attack Israel for no reason!”

That’s like saying “oh cmon, what would you do if you were an American soldier and your buddy was killed in Iraq? Wouldn’t you fight against those animals?”

Dude

[Nivsch]

@MKAUS

40 minutes ago, MKAUS said:

No.

I’ll give you just 1 example from a possible 1000. In 2018 the Gazan’s organised a peaceful non violent march to break the siege.
 

According to the human rights reports (look it up), during this march toward the border, Israel shot medics, children and disabled people.

Israel was not under attack by militants in this case (like I said, 1 example from 1000’s). The Gazans were attempting non-violent resistance.

What does Israel do? It shoots and kills disabled people. This is the documented record.

Reap what you sow.

I remeber that. Not an innocent protest as you describe it in my opinion.

It was barbaric shown.

hamas is way more brutal to them than Israeli restrictions and if you can't admit that the discussion is pointless. 

I am out.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

56 minutes ago, MKAUS said:

They’d rather die on their feet than to live crawling on their knees like they have been the last 20 years due to a brutal, illegal, degrading siege and occupation.

How is their strategy genocidal? Yes they targeted civilians. I don’t agree with that strategy but I also won’t condemn it.

When the black slaves revolted against the whites and committed unspeakable atrocities, I’m sure the whites condemned them at the time. What about 150 years later? Do we condemn a black slave revolting and killing civilians? I doubt it.

I think it’s too early to tell whether Oct 7th was the catalyst to a foundational change in this part of the Middle East.

Someone has been binging Norman Finkelstein content and regurgitating his talking points.

[MKAUS]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@MKAUS

I remeber that. Not an innocent thing as you describe it in my opinion. It was barbaric shown. hamas is way more brutal to them than Israeli restrictions and if you can't admit that the discussion is pointless. 

No wonder why Israel is a pariah state.

Someone says “Hey this is what numerous human rights reports are saying about Israel - sources FROM Israel even”

The Israeli says “Nah it’s all bullshit. The UN is bullshit. The ICC is bullshit. The ICJ is bullshit. What Europe says is bullshit. We’re Gods chosen ppl bro”

[MKAUS]

15 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Someone has been binging Norman Finkelstein content and regurgitating his talking points.

For around 20 years. Anything of substance that you can add or…..?

[Minini]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Stage Red is more genocidal than Blue. This isn't hard.

Even if the typing of spiral dynamic stages was accurate, it's irrelevant in considering the morality of any situation because without context you cannot pass a judgment.

If a rich person rapes/kills/steals a more impoverished person. The impoverished person would react in a way that is unique to his upbringing and within his means.

We as bystanders, should not in anyway demonize the impoverished person for reaction in this situation because he has right in self defense. Period.

You might disagree with the way he decided to defend himself yes and advise him to be smarter (i.e seek law for justice for ex) but you can't tell him he has no right to defend himself because that is what dehumanization is and that is what exactly Zionists do.

They don't even see Palestinians as humans who have a right to defend themselves. It doesn't matter if you are red, purple, yellow or turquoise or even pink. Self defense is basic human right and should not be stripped of anyone.

Also, such rhetoric gives the green light for committing the actual genocide we are seeing now in opposed to a hypothetical genocide that has no foot in reality

[Minini]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

And prior to the holocaust that shuffled all the cards made Jews to stay without an option but to come back to a land on where they were a majority for many centuries (before deportated and became a minority for more centuries). In the total sum both Jews and Arabs have quite an equal say on this place and a two state solution is the most fair one.

Palestinians have nothing to do with the Holocaust or the centuries old displacement of the Jewish people. And the possibility of having an ancestral tie to a land does NOT equal having actual rights of ownership. So in no way Jews and Arabs have a quite equal say in this. Jewish immigrants could have immigrated and coexisted peacefully, but instead they chose violence and displacement of locals to create their ethnonationalist dream country. So don't get surprised when you see hate arise as a reaction, it didn't exist out of thin air. 

Edited August 4 by Minini

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Minini said:

And the possibility of having an ancestral tie to a land does NOT equal having actual rights of ownership

Once you framed it in an underestimated way then of course you WANT the Jews to have less credit on this land.

And since you want it to be that way, maybe we should not argue at all because this is how you preceive Jews and Israelis and this is yours. 

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Minini said:

Even if the typing of spiral dynamic stages was accurate, it's irrelevant in considering the morality of any situation because without context you cannot pass a judgment.

If a rich person rapes/kills/steals a more impoverished person. The impoverished person would react in a way that is unique to his upbringing and within his means.

We as bystanders, should not in anyway demonize the impoverished person for reaction in this situation because he has right in self defense. Period.

You might disagree with the way he decided to defend himself yes and advise him to be smarter (i.e seek law for justice for ex) but you can't tell him he has no right to defend himself because that is what dehumanization is and that is what exactly Zionists do.

They don't even see Palestinians as humans who have a right to defend themselves. It doesn't matter if you are red, purple, yellow or turquoise or even pink. Self defense is basic human right and should not be stripped of anyone.

Also, such rhetoric gives the green light for committing the actual genocide we are seeing now in opposed to a hypothetical genocide that has no foot in reality

The issue with your deterministic view of the Palestinian response is that you apply it selectively only to them. It seems environment, upbringing and surroundings don't apply to Israelis - so it's fine to moralize their actions. You aren't allowed to judge anything Palestinians do though, they are the only ones who lack free will.

I don't know if you literally wanted to apply impoverishment to this situation, but given there are many surrounding wealthy nations who promote similar extremist views and philosophies I don't think wealth is main factor here.

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, MKAUS said:

The Israeli says “Nah it’s all bullshit. The UN is bullshit. The ICC is bullshit. The ICJ is bullshit. What Europe says is bullshit. We’re Gods chosen ppl bro

I have never had a friend or a family member who said we are "chosen", but listen whoever don't live here naturally will be judgmental and skeptical and do generalizations. I don't know how I can make you know my country better rather to add twitter posts from many voices. Up to you in the end what you decide. All good.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[lina]

33 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Once you framed it in an underestimated way then of course you WANT the Jews to have less credit on this land.

And since you want it to be that way, maybe we should not argue at all because this is how you preceive Jews and Israelis and this is yours. 

It has nothing to do with Jews or non Jews. it very simple you can't displace people from their homes under any circumstances. 2 wrongs don't make a right. No solution will ever be reached if Zionists don't acknowledge the destruction and violence they caused when they started their project. One they acknowledge this there will be a chance for actual peace. The problem here is the insistance of denial. 

Edited August 4 by lina

[Nivsch]

@lina But the escalation started in the 1920s when both sides worsen their steps all the time. Many see it in a very one sided view but it isn't a realistic view. And then they wonder why pro Israelis don't agree with them. Not everything is biases.

Moreover when after holocaust and when had a rich history in this land centuries ago, you can't tell Jews they can't migrate here or that this isn't legitimate becasue it is. This is a complex issue with no clear cut simple answers.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Minini]

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

The issue with your deterministic view of the Palestinian response is that you apply it selectively only to them. It seems environment, upbringing and surroundings don't apply to Israelis - so it's fine to moralize their actions. You aren't allowed to judge anything Palestinians do though, they are the only ones who lack free will.

I don't know if you literally wanted to apply impoverishment to this situation, but given there are many surrounding wealthy nations who promote similar extremist views and philosophies I don't think wealth is main factor here.

Nobody mentioned anything about Palestinians being perfect or that we should never judge them. What I am saying is in this specific conflict if you studied the history, Zionists have been the aggressors here. They started it so the Palestinian position is a reaction to that aggression that's why it is self defense. This is what resistance is. We can argue about how terrible/violent/barbaric their strategies have been, but you can't dismiss the bigger picture that it is resistance and it is within their legal and human right to do so. 

I understand the trauma Jewish people has been through and it is terrible without a doubt, but again Palestinians have nothing to do with it.

I don't care about other nations. I am just looking at two sides here. Palestinians and Israelis. Trying to blame religion for why Palestinians resist is not going to work. The early Palestinian resistance used to be left wing and yet were demonized and got their leaders/figures assassinated by Israel as well so that's nothing new.

 

Edited August 4 by Minini

[Hatfort]

41 minutes ago, Bandman said:

Take your leftard glasses off and stop thinking of people as sad little victims in their purest identity. Of course the Palestinians are the victims now, but you don't realize that Hamas are not some anarchist Liberation Army or something. They are conservative muslims who believe that the End Times will not come untill all jews have been killed by the muslims in a final LOTR esque epic war. Of course they are fighting for the freedom of the Palestinians, and that is good, but just take your leftard glasses off for once and realize that all people are evil all across the globe. That doesn't mean you shouldnt be left leaning anymore, just be truthful to what is happening.

Palestinians don't hate Jews for their religion, and they don't want to exterminate them. If there's hate is because of what the Zionists have done to them, ruthless murder, ethnic cleansing, and a current ongoing genocide. I don't know you, but if someone did that to me or my people, I would hate them too. Right now, in a globalized world, they distinguish between the Jewish religion and the Zionist project, which are not the same.

If anything, Jews should be thankful to the Arab Muslim world. For example, a lot of Jewish people who were expelled from what's now Spain found refuge in the majority Muslim lands of North Africa. There they lived in peaceful coexistence. In the Middle East, lands like Iraq, Egypt, Syria, or Palestine, majorly Muslim as well, Muslims, Christians, and Jews were coexisting fairly well too. Obviously, the Muslim perception changed when Zionism started their murderous project in one of their lands, Palestine, and in some cases that led to Jews experiencing hostility towards them and having to leave to Israel. Something the Zionists wanted, to increase their numbers in the occupied land.

Edited August 4 by Hatfort

[Vercingetorix]

2 hours ago, lina said:

. it very simple you can't displace people from their homes under any circumstances. 

Isn't it Ironic to say this as a Canadian, considering your history?