Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, Raze said:

Netanyahu personally helped fund Hamas, I don’t buy that he thinks you can’t negotiate with them when he paid them.

But everything changed after Oct 7.

Hamas want to live on and Israel will not accept that. So they will just keep bombing Gaza until it is totally unlivable.

That's the situation. It's not going to change.

Edited August 4 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

9 hours ago, hundreth said:

 

I think if it comes out that commanders instructed soldiers to behave this way, we have a serious problem. Otherwise, it's going to be a messy affair trying to sort out what is what.

The end result is equally tragic.

So would you consider if orders are given specifically to target civilians that is terrorism?

[Raze]

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

But everything changed after Oct 7.

Hamas want to live on and Israel will not accept that. So they will just keep bombing Gaza until it is totally unlivable.

That's the situation. It's not going to change.

So who is the genocidal one in this equation 

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

So who is the genocidal one in this equation 

Much moreso the Palestinians.

Stage Red is more genocidal than Blue. This isn't hard.

Edited August 4 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Much moreso the Palestinians.

Stage Red is more genocidal than Blue. This isn't hard.

2 million people trapped in a location you will bomb until it is unlivable is way more genocidal than anything the Palestinians ever did. 
 

Just watch the videos I sent, I think you are oversimplifying Hamas’s behavior. I’m not saying they are a good influence or anything, but it’s not as simple as they are rabid animals.

Edited August 4 by Raze

[Leo Gura]

46 minutes ago, Raze said:

2 million people trapped in a location you will bomb until it is unlivable is way more genocidal than anything the Palestinians ever did. 
 

That is only because they lack technology and military organization to pull it off. But if they could they would.

You are conflating lack of means with development level.

If Bin Landen had a nuke, he would use it. Israel has nukes and never use them. That's the difference.

Edited August 4 by Leo Gura

[Raze]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is only because they lack technology and military organization to pull it off. But if they could they would.

You are conflating lack of means with development level.

If Bin Landen had a nuke, he would use it. Israel has nukes and never use them. That's the difference.

Prior to Zionism, Palestinians and Jews had lived there in peace for centuries. 

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Prior to Zionism, Palestinians and Jews had lived there in peace for centuries. 

And prior to the holocaust that shuffled all the cards made Jews to stay without an option but to come back to a land on where they were a majority for many centuries (before deportated and became a minority for more centuries). In the total sum both Jews and Arabs have quite an equal say on this place and a two state solution is the most fair one.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Raze]

24 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

And prior to the holocaust that shuffled all the cards made Jews to stay without an option but to come back to a land on where they were a majority for many centuries (before deportated and became a minority for more centuries). In the total sum both Jews and Arabs have quite an equal say on this place and a two state solution is the most fair one.

- the Knesset just voted against two states

- how would they handle the separation between the West Bank and Gaza

- how would they handle the settlements

[_Archangel_]

@Raze Hamas will never represent reasonable leadership for palestinians.
They are sacrificing their own poeple in order to hurt Israel, They don't give a shit about Palestinians well-being.
Hamas need to disappear form the universe, as they are a threat to both Israelis and Palestinians.

On the other hand, If Israel were more developed, they would free the more moderate leaders from theirs prisons and push a cooperation plan that could involve an internal insurrection by the more liberal population of Palestine and prospects of a real and fair 2-state solution, pairing that with Surgical strikes, like they do on Iranian territory.
But this costant threat is what blinds them and makes it impossible for that leap to happen. - so what they do instead is vengful carpet bombing, which is like repairing a virus filled computer by phisically hammering it. (because that's how fascists operate).

 

 

[MKAUS]

As someone who’s been following Israel-Lebanon and Israel-Palestine conflicts for 20+ years, I’m constantly shocked at how seemingly very intelligent people see this conflict.

It really boggles my mind.

The historical record is overwhelmingly against Israel.

It’s not even close. Just look up Norman Finkelstein’s work.

Israel has just become more and more lunatic over the last 50 years.

The only way out of this mess IMO is the dismantling of the Israeli government and for Israel-Palestine to become one, normal democratic state with no partitions and no special privileges for being Jewish.

The Israelis will have no choice but to behave differently in the future simply because they’re being ostracized by the world and when the US turns off the money tap they are finished.

I just cannot believe the self bias and arrogance of Israelis. It’s really something to behold.

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

- the Knesset just voted against two states

- how would they handle the separation between the West Bank and Gaza

- how would they handle the settlements

In Trump's plan there had to be a tunnel that will connect between Gaza and West Bank. It seemed back then (in 2018/9) that Bibi and Trump like displayed the plan together and I had a feeling that even the Likud was for it. It's interesting to see how so similar plan to Oslo in 1994 suddently being accepted by part of the right wing when a right winger displays it. It proves that everything in the end breaks down to camp thinking.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@MKAUS If by historical record you mean only last 50 years than no wonder it feels that way because the settlements are being expanded more and more for no justified reason, but I would argue with you about the beginning of the settling in West Bank - only the third western part of it - which was necessary.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[MKAUS]

3 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@MKAUS If by historical record you mean only last 50 years than no wonder it feels that way because the settlements are being expanded for no justified reason

Settlements are only one element of it.

Palestinians have no reason to accept Israel with its current racist leadership.

Any defence of Israel is simply unacceptable.

I cannot take ppl who defend Israel seriously.

[MKAUS]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, yeah, that was my point.

You can't negotiate with a proud genocidal terrorist.

The problem for Hamas is that if they continue like this they will simply be exterminated. Okay then. They got what they wanted: to die as martyrs.

Hamas' genocidal strategy is stupid because they are too weak to carry it out. Which just means they will die.

They’d rather die on their feet than to live crawling on their knees like they have been the last 20 years due to a brutal, illegal, degrading siege and occupation.

How is their strategy genocidal? Yes they targeted civilians. I don’t agree with that strategy but I also won’t condemn it.

When the black slaves revolted against the whites and committed unspeakable atrocities, I’m sure the whites condemned them at the time. What about 150 years later? Do we condemn a black slave revolting and killing civilians? I doubt it.

I think it’s too early to tell whether Oct 7th was the catalyst to a foundational change in this part of the Middle East.

[Nivsch]

@MKAUS How those Palestinians were threated under Egypt and Jordan before Israelis settled there?

Why do you automatically assume it was better?

Actually in every other Arab countries the Palestinians conditions would have probably worse and with less freedom.

I also can't take seriously when people display the problem so unproportionally.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

27 minutes ago, MKAUS said:

I cannot take ppl who defend Israel seriously.

Because they know the country firsthand.

I hate the current government though.

Edited August 4 by Nivsch

[MKAUS]

9 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@MKAUS How those Palestinians were threated under Egypt and Jordan before Israelis settled there?

Why do you automatically assume it was better?

Actually in every other Arab countries the Palestinians conditions would have probably worse and with less freedom.

I also can't take seriously when people display the problem so unproportionally.

Your point here is a red herring.

As per the Israeli narrative since 1948. Commit unspeakable crimes and cry victim while pointing “over there”.

Best we end it here.

[MKAUS]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Because they know the country firsthand.

Just because a country has awesome falafel stands by the beach and good coffee culture,  doesnt change the fact that the historical record is very clear that it’s a vicious, satanic, lunatic state which routinely targets (by sniper so don’t say “oh they hide behind civilians”) and murders old ladies, disabled people, kids, babies and women. Check out the numerous human rights reports.

Those who took the time and effort to really dig deep on this topic are difficult to argue with.

The evidence is plentiful and embarrassing if someone peels back the self-bias.

Alan Dershowitz debated Norman Finkelstein many years ago. Norman hammered him so bad that Alan went ballistic and ensured that Norman was sacked and unable to teach as a professor ever again.

Now, why would Zionist Alan Dershowitz take such revenge - one has to wonder.

Edited August 4 by MKAUS

[Hatfort]

33 minutes ago, MKAUS said:

They’d rather die on their feet than to live crawling on their knees like they have been the last 20 years due to a brutal, illegal, degrading siege and occupation.

How is their strategy genocidal? Yes they targeted civilians. I don’t agree with that strategy but I also won’t condemn it.

When the black slaves revolted against the whites and committed unspeakable atrocities, I’m sure the whites condemned them at the time. What about 150 years later? Do we condemn a black slave revolting and killing civilians? I doubt it.

I think it’s too early to tell whether Oct 7th was the catalyst to a foundational change in this part of the Middle East.

Exactly, Palestinians have not responded in a way any other group of people wouldn't have in the same situation. Not only in the last 20 years, but this goes decades earlier, a constant violent ethnic cleansing and murder towards their people, literal replacement of entire regions, villages, and cities that were cleansed of its native group of people, to be replaced with a mostly foreign one.

In some cases, some US presidents put a stop to them, Reagan for example did it, but there were more, I don't remember whom now. AIPAC hasn't been asleep, its influence in US politics has been growing. It's a loop because they take money from the US taxpayers and they put it back in having favorable politicians, most of them are sold to different degrees. The opposition to any of Israel's demands, no matter what they do, a genocide in broad light right now, is zero. They get free weapons, and money as much as they want.

Let's say Hamas surrenders, they give up their weapons and agree to go to prison. What will Israel do? A two-state solution? Or what they are already doing in the West Bank, slowly but steadily adding more and more violent settlers with their own military presence to ensure an apartheid until they dilute any Palestinian existence? The second, for sure, we just have to see what they have been doing since they got there and what they are doing right now. Hamas is resisting that as they should, and any other group people would do if they could.

Edited August 4 by Hatfort