Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

13 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze I compare armed terrorists to civilians.

The 14K number of Hamas was the claimed about killed or injured 

You would need to compare it to the civilians killed or injured, not just killed 

[hundreth]

17 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Yet you believe Hamas put babies in oven and decapitated people and other stuff.

Why so? There is 0 proof of any of those.

Yet you doubt IDF being equally barbaric?

At this point they got more proof than Hamas.

If you got proof please send me.

I looked for hours and all the proof I found was some go pro videos of people getting shot with a gun.

Also some people beaten and cases of rape.

No beheadings, no burnings.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz9drj14e0lo

Meanwhile here you have proof of IDF barbarism.

 

Here we go with the decapitated babies again. Why are we still talking about that? 

No, I don't believe it because it's been reviewed and debunked. That's the end of it. It wasn't some nefarious Israeli plot to make Hamas look bad. They did enough of that themselves. They livestreamed some of the most barbaric acts. This was moreso just another Biden brain malfunction which isn't uncommon. Hamas did however burn babies alive by burning entire houses. There are photos which corroborate that. 

I've said it many times, decapitated babies are literally not needed and makes no difference. Hamas had already beyond crossed the line with what it published.

But yes, claims like beaten to death with hammers does sound ridiculous. It sounds like something a propagandist would make up. Of course you aren't going to go through the same trouble to fact check and verify that one as you did with decapitated babies which you're still bringing up 9 months later. A claim literally no Israeli uses or cares about. Only anti Israelis are obsessed with the babies thing.

And the reason the babies thing is continually brought up is as a rhetorical device to invalidate and minimize real things Hamas has done.

Edited July 17 by hundreth

[hundreth]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

The most recent claim by the IDF is 14,000 Hamas have been killed or wounded 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/idf-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership-14-000-operatives-killed-or-wounded/00000190-bc9c-db47-abb0-befd45310000

The Gaza health ministry most recent report is 38,794 people have been killed and 89,364 wounded

that’s a ratio of 1 to 9

Where did you get this ratio? Are you comparing all wounded included combatants to combatants killed? Even if you did that skewed math it's 1 : 6.4.

But really, if you wanted to include wounded then you'd also need to include combatants who are wounded and subtract that from the total wounded to get a real ratio.

When you cherry-pick and misrepresent numbers like that, it's not a good look dude. 

Edit: Just saw your post about 14K including wounded. Ok, in that case your argument is more reasonable, though you'd still need to subtract 14K from 89K... 

So then it's 1 : 5.3. Which isn't great but still far from 9. I'd like to see actual accurate numbers of militants killed.

Edited July 17 by hundreth

[Raze]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 17 by Raze

[Nivsch]

30 minutes ago, Raze said:

The 14K number of Hamas was the claimed about killed or injured 

You would need to compare it to the civilians killed or injured, not just killed 

The 38K is a combination of hamas combatants and civilians.

[Yimpa]

The numbers are indeed frightening.

[Raze]

33 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Where did you get this ratio? Are you comparing all wounded included combatants to combatants killed? Even if you did that skewed math it's 1 : 6.4.

But really, if you wanted to include wounded then you'd also need to include combatants who are wounded and subtract that from the total wounded to get a real ratio.

When you cherry-pick and misrepresent numbers like that, it's not a good look dude. 

Edit: Just saw your post about 14K including wounded. Ok, in that case your argument is more reasonable, though you'd still need to subtract 14K from 89K... 

So then it's 1 : 5.3. Which isn't great but still far from 9. I'd like to see actual accurate numbers of militants killed.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The 38K is a combination of hamas combatants and civilians.

38K is the combination of killed Hamas and killed civilians

the 14K is hamas fighters killed or injured, this is the idf’s most recent announcement you can see in the article I linked, it doesn’t say how many are killed vs injured within the 14K

so we also include the total injured 89K

so it’s 14K to (38K + 89K - 14K) 

 

[Nivsch]

@Raze The UN said 10K less 2 months ago (~25K)

[Raze]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze The UN said 10K less 2 months ago (~25K)

No, they said the amount of women and children was less but the total amount was unchanged 

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-says-gaza-death-toll-still-over-35000-not-all-bodies-identified-2024-05-13/

Edited July 17 by Raze

[hundreth]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

so it’s 14K to (38K + 89K - 14K) 

Ahh, the 89K doesn't include killed. Thanks for clarifying.

[Nivsch]

@hundreth You agree too soon to that. I dont understnd why. I see something else. IDF says 14K "killed". Not "maybe killed maybe wounded..."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/israel-at-war-day-284-israeli-army-says-it-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership/00000190-bc80-d458-a3d7-bfe7f9e10000

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[hundreth]

18 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@hundreth You agree too soon to that. I dont understnd why. I see something else. IDF says 14K "killed". Not "maybe killed maybe wounded..."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/israel-at-war-day-284-israeli-army-says-it-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership/00000190-bc80-d458-a3d7-bfe7f9e10000

You are correct. I wasn't sure which was the case but wanted to at least understand where his ratio came from.

I think in general some of the Hamas militants killed numbers will be contested, as some of the civilian wounded numbers will be contested. But at the end of the day including wounded is kind of apples and oranges. 

There's no way to compare those ratios to anything else because wounded isn't used. Killed militants vs civilians is what is used. 

If we're going by IDF numbers that's 14K to 24K which is a 1 : 1.7 as you said. 

With the deaths of those trapped under the rubble, that is an unknown that needs to be contended with. But then you also need to assume some percentage of those trapped are also militants. Is that ratio going to be the same? Hard to say and a lot of guesswork all the way around. The ratio could likely be anywhere from 1 : 1.5 to 1: 2.5 depending on the interpretations of data.

The biggest criticism I've heard regarding the IDF's combatant killed numbers is that the number is close to the number of adult males killed, and therefore they must be overcounted as militia. Though I haven't checked the numbers myself to see if there's any validity to that.

Edited July 17 by hundreth

[hundreth]

Quote

As of 12 July 2024, over 39,000 people (38,345 Palestinian[578] and 1,478 Israeli[590]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 108 journalists (103 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[591] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.[592]

The vast majority of casualties have been in the Gaza Strip. The death tolls reported by the UNOCHA come from Gaza government officials.[593] The breakdown of the figures in the UNOCHA report only includes casualties whose identities have been confirmed by the Gaza Health Ministry (GHM), while the overall figure is the number of deaths reported by the Gaza Government Media Office.[594] The GHM announced on 30 April, 2024 that 24,686 casualties had been specifically identified through hospitals, family members, and media reports;[595] of these, 52% were women and minors, 43% were men over 18, and 5% were not identified by age or sex.[596] The GHM count does not include those who have died from "preventable disease, malnutrition and other consequences of the war"[597] and a 2008 analysis by researchers at the Small Arms Survey suggests that total deaths caused by major conflicts were then a minimum average of five times the count of direct deaths.[158]

43% of 38 thousand is somewhere about 16,000. It seems unlikely that 14 out of 16 adult Gazan males are combatants. Also, there is surely some percentage of combatants who are under 18. I don't know the breakdown but it's likely the 14K number is overcounted if we're going by the GHM's data. To what extent is unclear, I wouldn't feel comfortable pushing that number down more than 15-20% or so at most. 

 

[Raze]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@hundreth You agree too soon to that. I dont understnd why. I see something else. IDF says 14K "killed". Not "maybe killed maybe wounded..."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/israel-at-war-day-284-israeli-army-says-it-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership/00000190-bc80-d458-a3d7-bfe7f9e10000

This is what I see from that article 

Quote

The IDF said that since the beginning of the war, half of the leadership of Hamas' military wing has been killed and approximately 14,000 members of the organization have been wounded in Gaza.

The article I posted

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/idf-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership-14-000-operatives-killed-or-wounded/00000190-bc9c-db47-abb0-befd45310000

says this

Quote

The Israeli army said on Tuesday that since the beginning of the war, half of the leadership of Hamas' military wing has been killed and approximately 14,000 members of the organization have been wounded or killed in the Gaza Strip

 

[hundreth]

29 minutes ago, Raze said:

This is what I see from that article 

Unfortunately it was paywalled for me, but I came across this article:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-12000-hamas-fighters-killed-in-gaza-war-double-the-terror-groups-claim/

Quote

The Israel Defense Forces said Monday that troops have killed some 12,000 of Hamas’s estimated 30,000 gunmen in the Gaza Strip since war erupted on October 7, after a Qatar-based official for the terror group claimed it had lost half that number — some 6,000 fighters — during the four-month-old conflict.

Hamas is also believed to have thousands of operatives who are seriously wounded and unable to fight.

That's from February. It would seem likely that number went up since then to that 14K figure. Unless they've significantly revised them down.

[Raze]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

 

That's from February. It would seem likely that number went up since then to that 14K figure. Unless they've significantly revised them down.

That’s the thing, they keep changing it. First they said they killed 14K, then 13K, then later 9K. The most recent claim is the one I linked. 

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, hundreth said:

Here we go with the decapitated babies again. Why are we still talking about that? 

No, I don't believe it because it's been reviewed and debunked. That's the end of it. It wasn't some nefarious Israeli plot to make Hamas look bad. They did enough of that themselves. They livestreamed some of the most barbaric acts. This was moreso just another Biden brain malfunction which isn't uncommon. Hamas did however burn babies alive by burning entire houses. There are photos which corroborate that. 

I've said it many times, decapitated babies are literally not needed and makes no difference. Hamas had already beyond crossed the line with what it published.

But yes, claims like beaten to death with hammers does sound ridiculous. It sounds like something a propagandist would make up. Of course you aren't going to go through the same trouble to fact check and verify that one as you did with decapitated babies which you're still bringing up 9 months later. A claim literally no Israeli uses or cares about. Only anti Israelis are obsessed with the babies thing.

And the reason the babies thing is continually brought up is as a rhetorical device to invalidate and minimize real things Hamas has done.

Can you please send me the links where I can see footage of Hamas doing anything to civilians that is not shootings, beatings or rape?

I tried and could not find.

You talk about their most barbaric acts. I want to see those livestreams.

And regarding setting houses on fire, I read on many sources that Israeli tanks did fire on houses during fighting and also during their employment of the Hannibal doctrine.

I believe a credible Israeli source claimed the Hannibal doctrine was implemented.

So the issue is that the whole thing seems fishy.

I do not think beating people with hammer sounds ridiciolous if you think IDF is as ruthless as Hamas is.

It only sounds crazy if you think they are some sort of ethical army.

[hundreth]

13 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Can you please send me the links where I can see footage of Hamas doing anything to civilians that is not shootings, beatings or rape?

I tried and could not find.

You talk about their most barbaric acts. I want to see those livestreams.

You're really making my point for me. Because of the babies claim you've moved the goalposts so far away that now you can minimize what Hamas did. If you watched those live streams and don't believe what you saw was barbaric and crossing a line, I don't know what to tell you. 

[Karmadhi]

Fair

Edited July 18 by Karmadhi

[Raze]