Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Leo Gura]

@Nivsch Again, if you want examples they are a mere Google search away.

[Nivsch]

37 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

he says that because in America being sympathetic to Israel is perceived as mainstream

What do you mean here exactly?

37 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Israel as a nation embodies more right-wing blue-orange values which he is set against in an almost absolutist manner

This government is very blue I won't deny that, but it is far from expressing the spiral picture of Israel this is why I like to add twitts from orange-green opposition parties people's talkings and opinions. It is difficult for me to see how the tale controls the dog with our parliament problematic method and affects the way my country is seen in an unfair way.

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What do you mean here exactly?

He questions the mainstream, he happens to be American and extremely cynical of anything rightwing. So he is naturally extremely skeptical towards a Western-allied nation in a geopolitical tricky situation. 

12 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

What do you mean here exactly?

This government is very blue I won't deny that, but it is far from expressing the spiral picture of Israel this is why I like to add twitts from orange-green opposition parties people's talkings. It is difficult to see how the tale controls the dog with our parliament problematic method and affects the way my country is seen in an unfair way.

I know, Israelis are relatively advanced and liberal people. The media loves to sensationalize and visit the lunatics and creates a false image. 

But still, the structural base of the country is stage blue because that's the nation-building stage. This is not a bad thing because it also includes a lot of genuinely meaningful and upstanding values that you need to create a highly functioning state and society. 

(As a side note example: Like even if they do a news reporting on the Haredim (Ultra-orthodox) they always go to the same neighborhoods and the same sects that are the most extreme while the broader population within that subset is more reasonable and give more nuanced opinions regarding for example the draft and the state. The same is even more true for settlers. Most settlers are incredibly decent and upstanding people with reasonable views. Yet the media always goes to the same lunatics.) 

 

 

 

[Raze]

 

Edited July 17 by Raze

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

Obviously, the insane propaganda shitstorm coming from the other side is way more vicious and many a number more.

One hundred percent correct. From all I have seen in the last 9 months this is crystal clear.

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

35 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I know, Israelis are relatively advanced and liberal people. The media loves to sensationalize and visit the lunatics and creates a false image. 

But still, the structural base of the country is stage blue because that's the nation-building stage. This is not a bad thing because it also includes a lot of genuinely meaningful and upstanding values that you need to create a highly functioning state and society. 

Probably because the religion Identity is uniquely important in this area to preserve liberal values system, what isn't necessary in most of the world, and pesonally I am not attached to my religion not nearly as much I am attached to our values system.

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

56 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Haredim (Ultra-orthodox) they always go to the same neighborhoods and the same sects that are the most extreme while the broader population within that subset is more reasonable and give more nuanced opinions regarding for example the draft and the state. The same is even more true for settlers. Most settlers are incredibly decent and upstanding people with reasonable views. Yet the media always goes to the same lunatics.

Agree

Not to mention how US and Europe attacks on Isis resulted in far worse outcome (equivalent to 10 twitter linktrees a day of @Raze) but the anti Israeli movement will never admit that.

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Former Head of IDF (2002-2005) and Minister of Defense (2013-2016) Moshe Ya'alon.

[Raze]

32 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Agree

Not to mention how US and Europe attacks on Isis resulted in far worse outcome (equivalent to 10 twitter linktrees a day of @Raze) but the anti Israeli movement will never admit that.

This US veteran said his analysis is Israel is doing less to avoid harming civilians than US operations 

 

[Karmadhi]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

@Karmadhi is among the most articulate people on this forum. He raised an important point in the last post. 

Thank you.

To be honest there I wrote a very polarizing thing on purpose, but on the longer replies I try to be nuanced and objective.

There I was not being serious.

I will admit that.

11 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

IDF makes Wagner look soft these days.

This is not me being serious.

A serious note would be: They seem to employ similar tactics and total lack of care for international law.

 

Edited July 17 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

So he is naturally extremely skeptical towards a Western-allied nation in a geopolitical tricky situation. 

Leo has been quite supportive of Ukraine and has said openly that Russia violated international law and has done war crimes.

I have not seen him be biased against Ukraine.

And Ukraine is also a tricky situation and a Western allied nation.

He is critical of Israel because they corrupt USA through their lobbies and influence the media to suit their agenda.

Leo's greatest value is Truth and Israel tries hard in the West to distort truth.

I have not seen Leo support Hamas either, just understand their perspective and not paint them as cartoonish evil terrorists like Israelis do.

So calling him out as biased is quite unfair.

 

[Nivsch]

@Raze A combatants civillians ratio of 1:1 to 1:1.5 at most is far more careful than the ratios in Iraq that were 1:5 to 1:10.

Is this careful enough? No. But the problem exists every time a western military has to deal with guerilla so be honest.

https://x.com/yaakovkatz/status/1749870793486405750

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Leo has been quite supportive of Ukraine and has said openly that Russia violated international law and has done war crimes.

I have not seen him be biased against Ukraine.

And Ukraine is also a tricky situation and a Western allied nation.

He is critical of Israel because they corrupt USA through their lobbies and influence the media to suit their agenda.

Leo's greatest value is Truth and Israel tries hard in the West to distort truth.

I have not seen Leo support Hamas either, just understand their perspective and not paint them as cartoonish evil terrorists like Israelis do.

So calling him out as biased is quite unfair.

 

   True. It's as if calling someone biased and that automatically wins the argument isn't enough. You have to do more than just label someone as biased, like yeah they're biased but EVERYONE has their biases, just stating they're biased and have based takes does not win a debate. It's like when the Socialists/Progressives or those in mainstream institutes just call you a Racist or other slurs and mean words is worth a W. But they missed the double you standard for yourself to shelf the other views into a bookshelf, like it's nice reading that perspective without being all introspective!

[Raze]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze A combatants civillians ratio of 1:1 to 1:1.5 at most is far more careful than the ratios in Iraq that were 1:5 to 1:10.

Is this careful enough? No. But the problem exists every time a western military has to deal with guerilla so be honest.

 

The most recent claim by the IDF is 14,000 Hamas have been killed or wounded 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/idf-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership-14-000-operatives-killed-or-wounded/00000190-bc9c-db47-abb0-befd45310000

The Gaza health ministry most recent report is 38,794 people have been killed and 89,364 wounded

that’s a ratio of 1 to 9

Edited July 17 by Raze

[Karmadhi]

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

The Gaza health ministry most recent report is 38,794 people have been killed and 89,364 wounded

 

Dont forget the 10.000 under the rubble, mostly civilians.

With them included it is around 50.000.

Edited July 17 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

25 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   True. It's as if calling someone biased and that automatically wins the argument isn't enough. You have to do more than just label someone as biased, like yeah they're biased but EVERYONE has their biases, just stating they're biased and have based takes does not win a debate. It's like when the Socialists/Progressives or those in mainstream institutes just call you a Racist or other slurs and mean words is worth a W. But they missed the double you standard for yourself to shelf the other views into a bookshelf, like it's nice reading that perspective without being all introspective!

Ideally you need to give specific cases or examples of biases and double standards.

I tried to do it with the Wagner hammer comparison only to be labeled stuff. Only when Boby intervened, did Vrubel elaborate and gave his version.

Lets try on this forum to actually give examples and elaborations when we call someone biased.

Since this forum is focused on Leo's epistemic work, the biggest boggyman is the word "bias".

It has become basically a meaningless slur to say to those that disagree with you, without proper backup of why the term is used.

I have also been guilty of this, will not deny it.

From now on, I will try to always give examples or proof when I call someone biased.

PS: Calling Leo biased against Israel when he is neither Arab, neither Jewish, neither Muslim, neither Zionist, neither SJW, neither pro lobby, neither 

Would be good if everyone here started doing it.

Edited July 17 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Karmadhi

16 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Ideally you need to give specific cases or examples of biases and double standards.

I tried to do it with the Wagner hammer comparison only to be labeled stuff. Only when Boby intervened, did Vrubel elaborate and gave his version.

Lets try on this forum to actually give examples and elaborations when we call someone biased.

Since this forum is focused on Leo's epistemic work, the biggest boggyman is the word "bias".

It has become basically a meaningless slur to say to those that disagree with you, without proper backup of why the term is used.

I have also been guilty of this, will not deny it.

From now on, I will try to always give examples or proof when I call someone biased.

PS: Calling Leo biased against Israel when he is neither Arab, neither Jewish, neither Muslim, neither Zionist, neither SJW, neither pro lobby, neither 

Would be good if everyone here started doing it.

   I mostly agree, have seen more posts that if you disagree you just call that person too biased and that's that. Looking like to me the start of bias gate or something.😂

[Nivsch]

49 minutes ago, Raze said:

The most recent claim by the IDF is 14,000 Hamas have been killed or wounded 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-16/ty-article/.premium/idf-killed-half-of-hamas-military-leadership-14-000-operatives-killed-or-wounded/00000190-bc9c-db47-abb0-befd45310000

The Gaza health ministry most recent report is 38,794 people have been killed and 89,364 wounded

that’s a ratio of 1 to 9

(38.8-14):14= 1:1.8

Best ratio ever in a war of western military against guerilla, and with a big gap.

Edited July 17 by Nivsch

[Raze]

37 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

(38.8-14):14= 1:1.8

Best ratio ever in a war of western military against guerilla, and with a big gap.

That isn’t the ratio because you’re comparing the claimed amount of Hamas killed and injured to total Gazans killed 

[Nivsch]

@Raze I compare armed terrorists to civilians.

Edited July 17 by Nivsch