Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000
 

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IDF Ordered Hannibal Directive on October 7 to Prevent Hamas Taking Soldiers Captive

'There was crazy hysteria, and decisions started being made without verified information': Documents and testimonies obtained by Haaretz reveal the Hannibal operational order, which directs the use of force to prevent soldiers being taken into captivity, was employed at three army facilities infiltrated by Hamas, potentially endangering civilians as well

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-02-09/ty-article/.premium/idf-investigation-reveals-high-probability-that-hostage-killed-during-air-force-bombing/0000018d-8e4d-d9cc-a5cd-ffffe7840000

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IDF Investigation Finds High Probability That Hostage Was Killed During Air Force Bombing

The Israeli army believes Yossi Sharabi was killed when the IDF conducted a strike in a building adjacent to where he and two other hostages were being held

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-806634

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IDF knew of Hamas's plan to kidnap 250 before October 7 attack - report 

The IDF had precise information about Hamas's intentions, but due to prevailing conceptions in the security establishment and possible negligence by officials, the warning signs were not acted on.

https://english.almayadeen.net/news/politics/ben-gvir-confirms-atrocities-faced-by-palestinians-in-israel?__cf_chl_tk=4r4QQHtD8GnUFfVnX6NXF6bmYFAVrAh1kISoQoHey2Q-1720368676-0.0.1.1-4031

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Ben-Gvir confirms atrocities faced by Palestinians in Israeli prisons

Israeli Police Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir confirms the reports saying Palestinians are suffering atrocious circumstances in Israeli prisons and pushes for even harsher treatment.

 

Edited July 7 by Raze

[Nivsch]

@Raze Yes everyone were under a conception that hamas is incapable of this.

[Raze]

8 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Raze Yes everyone were under a conception that hamas is incapable of this.

Even just basic guarding of the border would have avoided it or most of it, not to mention how many would be saved had IDF not fired on their own people. Instead they had moved Gaza border guards to help protect settlers stealing land in the West Bank. It’s an example of how a population allowing a government to dehumanize another group, in this case Palestinians, leads to they themselves being put in danger and dehumanized by the same government.

Edited July 7 by Raze

[Nivsch]

On 4.7.2024 at 3:23 AM, Gennadiy1981 said:

So if this is the case, why not act on a primitive level, at least you say straight up then going in circles. Thats why I say what I mean. I can do the same thing, speak intelligently, throw some deep words while keep the same meaning, or speak on that primitive level where others would just easily understand me.

I understand what you are saying, but I feel I am already say what I really think. I have no simpler way to say what I think and that reflects the way I feel I want to say it. At least not for now. I try to be as authentic as I can.

From my two hours walk in Bat-Yam beach today.

Edited July 7 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Bobby_2021

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Eliminating hamas was a lofty goal from the beginning. I thought they could make it.

He is nuts. 

Seriously worried about the existence of Israel. 

Hezbollah is a whole different beast. I hope Bibi won't mess this up.

   Exactly, let Bi bi try to approach Hezbollah and Lebanon like he doing with HAMMAs and Gazans. He probably can't unless he really wants that war and to risk Israel's existence, just for political score points. That's my point, he get's away with bullying Gazans because that gap in power allows him to, as he destabilized and demilitarized Palestinians. Not with Lebanon, which they created BTW that situation for Hezbollah to happen. It's literally their action of invading into Lebanon that made them there. 

[Raze]

 

 

Edited July 7 by Raze

[Nivsch]

Former Prime Minister (1999-2001) and Head of IDF (1991-1995) Ehud Barak (translated)

Edited July 7 by Nivsch

[Vrubel]

6 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Not to beat on the dead horse, but @Karmadhi posted this video about Moshe Feiglin whom I know very well and why was so he radical in it, I actually called him and asked but unfortunately his grandson was killed in the battle field during the fire exchange with Hamas militants. (Moshe got married super early and so did his children), so he was actually very frustrated and was very pissed off, but it’s one thing when someone else gets killed vs a family member and here was his grandson. That’s why he released such a video that he did. 
Just for your info, Moshe is a very cool guy, if he would be on this forum you would find him more in Psychedelic section post, he is very outspoken on it, of course when he was in politics and was asked by reporters he denied ever taking them because you know, you get a label, but he officially says that as per studies they can give profound experience and people have the right to do with their bodies whatever they please as long as they don’t hurt others. But you can also see that events which lead to survival can bring people to desperate calls and move. Even Leo said that those who reach higher stages of spiral dynamics, if faced with survival may fall into lower stages.

Again had to reply since the posted video was about someone I know personally, couldn’t let it go without looking into it.

I'm sorry to hear that. May he and his family be blessed with strength and comfort. 

[Gennadiy1981]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

I'm sorry to hear that. May he and his family be blessed with strength and comfort. 

Amen, may we never know the loss of anyone.

@Nivsch can you help out here, @Razekeeps constantly saying that on the Oct. 7 aftermath the IDF were shooting indiscriminately and killed our own. I never heard such thing nor from any reliable source. They are conspiracy websites but they are very conspirational in many other aspects so I have hart time believing them. But I did not see in any legit source that IDF killed our own citizens. Have you heard of such? Is it true or just another conspiracy theory?

[Raze]

36 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Amen, may we never know the loss of anyone.

@Nivsch can you help out here, @Razekeeps constantly saying that on the Oct. 7 aftermath the IDF were shooting indiscriminately and killed our own. I never heard such thing nor from any reliable source. They are conspiracy websites but they are very conspirational in many other aspects so I have hart time believing them. But I did not see in any legit source that IDF killed our own citizens. Have you heard of such? Is it true or just another conspiracy theory?

Haaretz claims they received documents and testimonies showing it 

https://archive.is/VyBaV

I haven’t found anything on that org making up sources before 

also

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/03/another-israeli-soldier-admits-to-implementing-the-hannibal-directive-on-october-7/

 

Edited July 8 by Raze

[Gennadiy1981]

@Raze but the links are not from HaAretz newspaper, it’s not. 
 

I am not debating you but I would like to see some legit sources even American ones ok like MSNBC, or CNN or Fox or legit or mainstream Israel ones. I mean such a big deal if was true, would be picked up by some sources. Please understand whenever the info is hidden from the public a lot of conspiracy pop up.

@Nivsch what’s your perspective on it? Have you seen any legit sources. 
 

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Amen, may we never know the loss of anyone.

@Nivsch can you help out here, @Razekeeps constantly saying that on the Oct. 7 aftermath the IDF were shooting indiscriminately and killed our own. I never heard such thing nor from any reliable source. They are conspiracy websites but they are very conspirational in many other aspects so I have hart time believing them. But I did not see in any legit source that IDF killed our own citizens. Have you heard of such? Is it true or just another conspiracy theory?

No I am just tired of answering every strech or reality engineering trials like that.

The helicopters perhaps in couple of times has mistakenly shot our people instead of hamas but those were negligible in amount in comparison to the murdered by hamas.

Edited July 8 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

8 hours ago, Raze said:

Haaretz claims they received documents and testimonies showing it 

https://archive.is/VyBaV

I haven’t found anything on that org making up sources before 

also

https://mondoweiss.net/2024/03/another-israeli-soldier-admits-to-implementing-the-hannibal-directive-on-october-7/

 

   Dude don't get baited by them to argue, like I said they're circle talking you over and over again.

[Raze]

8 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

@Raze but the links are not from HaAretz newspaper, it’s not. 
 

I am not debating you but I would like to see some legit sources even American ones ok like MSNBC, or CNN or Fox or legit or mainstream Israel ones. I mean such a big deal if was true, would be picked up by some sources. Please understand whenever the info is hidden from the public a lot of conspiracy pop up.

@Nivsch what’s your perspective on it? Have you seen any legit sources. 
 

 

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

No I am just tired of answering every strech or reality engineering trials like that.

The helicopters perhaps in couple of times has mistakenly shot our people instead of hamas but those were negligible in amount in comparison to the murdered by hamas.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-07/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-ordered-hannibal-directive-on-october-7-to-prevent-hamas-taking-soldiers-captive/00000190-89a2-d776-a3b1-fdbe45520000
 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-hannibal-protocol-during-oct-7-fighting-report/

[Raze]

https://www.972mag.com/israeli-soldiers-gaza-firing-regulations/
 

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‘I’m bored, so I shoot’: The Israeli army’s approval of free-for-all violence in Gaza

Quote

In early June, Al Jazeera aired a series of disturbing videos revealing what it described as “summary executions”: Israeli soldiers shooting dead several Palestinians walking near the coastal road in the Gaza Strip, on three separate occasions. In each case, the Palestinians appeared unarmed and did not pose any imminent threat to the soldiers.

Such footage is rare, due to the severe constraints faced by journalists in the besieged enclave and the constant danger to their lives. But these executions, which did not appear to have any security rationale, are consistent with the testimonies of six Israeli soldiers who spoke to +972 Magazine and Local Call following their release from active duty in Gaza in recent months. Corroborating the testimonies of Palestinian eyewitnesses and doctors throughout the war, the soldiers described being authorized to open fire on Palestinians virtually at will, including civilians.

The six sources — all except one of whom spoke on the condition of anonymity — recounted how Israeli soldiers routinely executed Palestinian civilians simply because they entered an area that the military defined as a “no-go zone.” The testimonies paint a picture of a landscape littered with civilian corpses, which are left to rot or be eaten by stray animals; the army only hides them from view ahead of the arrival of international aid convoys, so that “images of people in advanced stages of decay don’t come out.” Two of the soldiers also testified to a systematic policy of setting Palestinian homes on fire after occupying them.

Several sources described how the ability to shoot without restrictions gave soldiers a way to blow off steam or relieve the dullness of their daily routine. “People want to experience the event [fully],” S., a reservist who served in northern Gaza, recalled. “I personally fired a few bullets for no reason, into the sea or at the sidewalk or an abandoned building. They report it as ‘normal fire,’ which is a codename for ‘I’m bored, so I shoot.'”

Since the 1980s, the Israeli military has refused to disclose its open-fire regulations, despite various petitions to the High Court of Justice. According to political sociologist Yagil Levy, since the Second Intifada, “the army has not given soldiers written rules of engagement,” leaving much open to the interpretation of soldiers in the field and their commanders. As well as contributing to the killing of over 38,000 Palestinians, sources testified that these lax directives were also partly responsible for the high number of soldiers killed by friendly fire in recent months.

“There was total freedom of action,” said B., another soldier who served in the regular forces in Gaza for months, including in his battalion’s command center. “If there is [even] a feeling of threat, there is no need to explain — you just shoot.” When soldiers see someone approaching, “it is permissible to shoot at their center of mass [their body], not into the air,” B. continued. “It’s permissible to shoot everyone, a young girl, an old woman.”

B. went on to describe an incident in November when soldiers killed several civilians during the evacuation of a school close to the Zeitoun neighborhood of Gaza City, which had served as a shelter for displaced Palestinians. The army ordered the evacuees to exit to the left, toward the sea, rather than to the right, where the soldiers were stationed. When a gunfight erupted inside the school, those who veered the wrong way in the ensuing chaos were immediately fired at.

“There was intelligence that Hamas wanted to create panic,” B. said. “A battle started inside; people ran away. Some fled left toward the sea, [but] some ran to the right, including children. Everyone who went to the right was killed — 15 to 20 people. There was a pile of bodies.”

‘People shot as they pleased, with all their might’

B. said that it was difficult to distinguish civilians from combatants in Gaza, claiming that members of Hamas often “walk around without their weapons.” But as a result, “every man between the ages of 16 and 50 is suspected of being a terrorist.”

“It is forbidden to walk around, and everyone who is outside is suspicious,” B. continued. “If we see someone in a window looking at us, he is a suspect. You shoot. The [army’s] perception is that any contact [with the population] endangers the forces, and a situation must be created in which it is forbidden to approach [the soldiers] under any circumstances. [The Palestinians] learned that when we enter, they run away.”

Even in seemingly unpopulated or abandoned areas of Gaza, soldiers engaged in extensive shooting in a procedure known as “demonstrating presence.” S. testified that his fellow soldiers would “shoot a lot, even for no reason — anyone who wants to shoot, no matter what the reason, shoots.” In some cases, he noted, this was “intended to … remove people [from their hiding places] or to demonstrate presence.”

M., another reservist who served in the Gaza Strip, explained that such orders would come directly from the commanders of the company or battalion in the field. “When there are no [other] IDF forces [in the area] … the shooting is very unrestricted, like crazy. And not just small arms: machine guns, tanks, and mortars.”

Even in the absence of orders from above, M. testified that soldiers in the field regularly take the law into their own hands. “Regular soldiers, junior officers, battalion commanders — the junior ranks who want to shoot, they get permission.”

S. remembered hearing over the radio about a soldier stationed in a protective compound who shot a Palestinian family walking around nearby. “At first, they say ‘four people.’ It turns into two children plus two adults, and by the end it’s a man, a woman, and two children. You can assemble the picture yourself.”

Only one of the soldiers interviewed for this investigation was willing to be identified by name: Yuval Green, a 26-year-old reservist from Jerusalem who served in the 55th Paratroopers Brigade in November and December last year (Green recently signed a letter by 41 reservists declaring their refusal to continue serving in Gaza, following the army’s invasion of Rafah). “There were no restrictions on ammunition,” Green told +972 and Local Call. “People were shooting just to relieve the boredom.”

Green described an incident that occurred one night during the Jewish festival of Hanukkah in December, when “the whole battalion opened fire together like fireworks, including tracer ammunition [which generates a bright light]. It made a crazy color, illuminating the sky, and because [Hannukah] is the ‘festival of lights,’ it became symbolic.”

 

[Karmadhi]

On 7/7/2024 at 5:42 PM, Gennadiy1981 said:

Not to beat on the dead horse, but @Karmadhi posted this video about Moshe Feiglin whom I know very well and why was so he radical in it, I actually called him and asked but unfortunately his grandson was killed in the battle field during the fire exchange with Hamas militants. (Moshe got married super early and so did his children), so he was actually very frustrated and was very pissed off, but it’s one thing when someone else gets killed vs a family member and here was his grandson. That’s why he released such a video that he did. 
Just for your info, Moshe is a very cool guy, if he would be on this forum you would find him more in Psychedelic section post, he is very outspoken on it, of course when he was in politics and was asked by reporters he denied ever taking them because you know, you get a label, but he officially says that as per studies they can give profound experience and people have the right to do with their bodies whatever they please as long as they don’t hurt others. But you can also see that events which lead to survival can bring people to desperate calls and move. Even Leo said that those who reach higher stages of spiral dynamics, if faced with survival may fall into lower stages.

Again had to reply since the posted video was about someone I know personally, couldn’t let it go without looking into i

So all the Palestinians whose relatives were killed have the right to murder Israeli civilians and wish for it.

Since hey, if your son got killed it is ok to call for genocide?

I understand that guy's position, I did not know he had this loss. I take back calling him a Nazi. Probably grief makes people not mentally well. But the issue is that I equally understand the position of the tens of thousnads of Palestinians who went through similar things and did the October attacks.

Your empathy seems to only apply to 1 side.

@Vrubel I am curious. Since it is ok to wish for genocide when you have a family loss from the enemy country, is it also ok for Palestinians who had family losses from Israel, to celebrate and wish for mass murder of Israeli civilians? Curious.

Edited July 9 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

@Nivsch If you only you Israelis had 1/10 of the empathy and humanity you have towards those 100 hostages that you have for the 15.000 kids killed in Gaza...

[Gennadiy1981]

 

@Karmadhi Look we are speaking of two different things. First of all I have personal bias, it’s my country and my people who are getting killed so regardless I cannot see things objectively. Though I try but everyone in this world have bias including Leo. Leo has very little bias and I truly applaud but regardless he has biases as well.

Second of all, on a personal level you cannot judge anyone who lose their love one to war. You just can’t judge those people. 

Thanks @Nivsch I was under impression that the whole thing was fake news and did not happen. But are you sure it is true? Again during such turmoil God knows what could have happen.

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

. Thanks @Nivsch I was under impression that the whole thing was fake news and did not happen. But are you sure it is true? Again during such turmoil God knows what could have happen.

I linked you two articles from Israeli outlets, read them for yourself, I didn’t make it up.

[Gennadiy1981]

Thanks I did read them. I am not negating you just wanted to get opinion from someone else. But HaAretz is a legit source.