Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Vrubel said:

That’s why I love Israel, can you imagine Jews still living among the Isis, Houthi and Taliban folk or some kind of eccentric Arab dictator. Jews are not only native to Israel but a much wider region in the Middle East though they cannot live there just as much Jews couldn’t really live in medieval Europe. 

Firstly , thanks for the historical explanation. 

Now regarding the last part, maybe they can live in secular European countries where they are treated well now?

Although I am open to Israel existing as it does, I am against them taking more land and especially bullying everyone around them and corrupting most of the West via AIPAC and other means of manipulation.

I feel like Israel chose a bad spot of the world to settle too. There were many places where Israel could have been created which were discussed. They picked a bad spot in my opinion. And that is the crux of the issue. Personally, I reject the argument that Israel should be where it is because of stuff that happened 4000 years ago. After WW2, that super old history should not have been taken into account. Not because it is not true, I am sure it happened, but because the spot was so violatile and unstable that it would only entail disaster to make the Jewish state there. I think that choice of land was not wise. 

Edited July 4 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

The most extreme Zionists are in the government today with very significant ministers

True

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

military action in Gaza in the last eight months is as extreme as it could be

What is the main problem in your opinion? The damage to Gaza that was in excess (that I think too) or something else?

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

The way Gaza was treated before October was extreme too

Why?

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Constant violent harassment for them from armed settlers and the Zionist military forces.

And the brutal violence from the other side and his responsibility in triggering the second side too? What about that?

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Whatever you call moderate in Israel, is not having any political influence

Right now this is true. They are in the opposition.

Edited July 4 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Former Head of IDF (2002-2005) and Minister of Defense (2013-2016) Moshe Ya'alon.

[Hatfort]

@Nivsch The problem is the occupation of a land that had its inhabitants before the Zionist project was built, inhabitants that have been terrorized, killed, and displaced. This didn't need to happen, it's a colony, the native Palestinians weren't asked if they agreed with having a Jewish ethnostate built in their hometown. They wouldn't have agreed, maybe the USA would have, as they are the biggest supporters of Zionism.

Before October last year, Gaza was an open-air prison where only Israeli officials could decide who could go in and out, and also what goods could go in and out, making the living conditions there horrible, and impossible to develop economically. They weren't even allowed to fish on their own coast. One of the brainwashing methods to make them look like undeveloped savages to the rest of the world, and it worked, congrats. Then there was the systematic violence from the other side of the fence, snipers shooting unarmed civilians and killing them. They were hundreds, but let me point for example Shireen Abu Akleh, shot for the journalistic job she was doing. There was the march for freedom, clearly unarmed Palestinians were shot by snipers, including children, women, medics identified as that, press members identified as that, an even a disabled man that couldn't walk. It was a constant dripping of these actions, that continued until October 2023. Also the periodical bombardments every couple of years since the prison started.

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   Stop treating Israel like it's another America, it's not that diverse.

I understand you are expert on Israeli society 🥰

Edited July 4 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

3 hours ago, Hatfort said:

inhabitants that have been terrorized, killed, and displaced.

So you took a civil war documentary and cutted half of its frames?

3 hours ago, Hatfort said:

are the biggest supporters of Zionism

Have you considered why Zionism has started in the first place?

3 hours ago, Hatfort said:

only Israeli officials could decide who could go in and out

Well maybe because that area is ruled by a terror organization? 

3 hours ago, Hatfort said:

there was the systematic violence from the other side of the fence, snipers shooting unarmed civilians and killing them

I have impressed those marches of civilians near the border weren't innocent at all.

3 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Also the periodical bombardments every couple of years since the prison started.

What caused them to start? 

Fore example the operation in 2014 started after 3 Israeli teenagers were murdered.

Edited July 4 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I understand you are expert on Israeli society 🥰

   Yes, I am expert on Israeli society. I tell you and Israel Zions stop eating Palestinian land. Grab more land, pisses Palestinians. More pissed Palestinians, more terrorists. Understand? Do I need write Hebrew? Give Palestinian land back, just some, and help build state, and maybe OK for future Yes? If not mother Russia will come make it happen.

[Hatfort]

@Nivsch You keep asking who started it, your answer is always the Palestinians. This is not true, in the most both-sided way we could say it's a continuation of mutual harming. But let's be accurate, one is more brutal than the other, the Israeli terrorist state does kill much more, and if we go back enough, this started when the Zionist project was established in this land, and they violently occupied it murdering and displacing the local people. So that's who started it, not the local Palestinians, but the Zionist colonizers.

Your impressions are wrong, the people murdered from the fence were normal unarmed civilians. The march of freedom would be the proof of that. Any resistance fighter wouldn't put himself on the border anyway.

If Hamas is a terrorist organization, the Israeli government and military are too, and on a much bigger scale, as they kill many more civilians and cause much more destruction. So no, I don't think it's justified for Israel to do the horrible action it does, before and after October last year. It's still happening, I just watched this morning some more of these images of IDF soldiers eating Lays while they burn homes of people.

[Nivsch]

@Hatfort You keep repeating the same mantras like a machine gun and it hard to feel it is a conversation, so Ok think however you want. Good night 🌖

Edited July 4 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

1 hour ago, Hatfort said:

@Nivsch You keep asking who started it, your answer is always the Palestinians. This is not true, in the most both-sided way we could say it's a continuation of mutual harming. But let's be accurate, one is more brutal than the other, the Israeli terrorist state does kill much more, and if we go back enough, this started when the Zionist project was established in this land, and they violently occupied it murdering and displacing the local people. So that's who started it, not the local Palestinians, but the Zionist colonizers.

Your impressions are wrong, the people murdered from the fence were normal unarmed civilians. The march of freedom would be the proof of that. Any resistance fighter wouldn't put himself on the border anyway.

If Hamas is a terrorist organization, the Israeli government and military are too, and on a much bigger scale, as they kill many more civilians and cause much more destruction. So no, I don't think it's justified for Israel to do the horrible action it does, before and after October last year. It's still happening, I just watched this morning some more of these images of IDF soldiers eating Lays while they burn homes of people.

   There's no point in talking like this to some people in deep denial. The propaganda is too strong, and nobody wants to admit their side is evil. And a lot of white washing...so here we are. And honestly what are you expecting talking to users that post beach scenes and tourist sites while miles away a genocidal event is happening?

Edited July 4 by Danioover9000

[Hatfort]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Hatfort

   There's no point in talking like this to some people in deep denial. The propaganda is too strong, and nobody wants to admit their side is evil. And a lot of white washing...so here we are. And honestly what are you expecting talking to users that post beach scenes and tourist sites while miles away a genocidal event is happening?

I guess this is a forum to share different perspectives and some debating happens. He was asking me questions, and even if I don't owe him answering them, I decided to do so. He didn't like it anyway.

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

1 minute ago, Hatfort said:

I guess this is a forum to share different perspectives and some debating happens. He was asking me questions, and even if I don't owe him answering them, I decided to do so. He didn't like it anyway.

   That's fine if he started this and you were just responding. If you saw what happened to the original thread it got locked because of him and like 4 others just doing this circling around thing, and it eventually escalated into something else.

[Hatfort]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Hatfort

   That's fine if he started this and you were just responding. If you saw what happened to the original thread it got locked because of him and like 4 others just doing this circling around thing, and it eventually escalated into something else.

I didn't see what happened in that thread. I participated for a while at first, but for some months I wasn't even visiting the forum.

It's a very heated topic, very tragic events.

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

17 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

I didn't see what happened in that thread. I participated for a while at first, but for some months I wasn't even visiting the forum.

It's a very heated topic, very tragic events.

   That thread was way worse than this thread, got crazy a few times that almost all the mods were participating and it was so heated with lots of back and forth the whole thing had to get locked. Then about 3 other threads with Israel and Palestine opened up, and then this thread. This threads a bit tamer at least. I guess then people had a lot to get off their heads and chest at but now it's a bit level despite the same circling around.

[Raze]

Quote

Israeli Generals, Low on Munitions, Want a Truce in Gaza

Israel’s military leadership wants a cease-fire with Hamas in case a bigger war breaks out in Lebanon, security officials say. It has also concluded that a truce would be the swiftest way to free hostages.

https://archive.is/Xt8k0

Quote

 

IDF spokesman says Hamas can’t be destroyed, drawing retort from PM: ‘That’s war’s goal’

Hagari calls Hamas ‘an idea rooted in the hearts of the people,’ also says it will stay in Gaza unless alternative found; PM reiterates war aims, amid divisions with defense brass

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-spokesman-says-hamas-cant-be-eliminated-will-remain-in-gaza-if-no-alternative/

Quote

Israel approves largest West Bank land seizure in three decades, rights group says

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/04/middleeast/israel-largest-west-bank-land-seizure-three-decades-intl/index.html

[zazen]

3 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Hatfort

   That thread was way worse than this thread, got crazy a few times that almost all the mods were participating and it was so heated with lots of back and forth the whole thing had to get locked. Then about 3 other threads with Israel and Palestine opened up, and then this thread. This threads a bit tamer at least. I guess then people had a lot to get off their heads and chest at but now it's a bit level despite the same circling around.

The good old days lol. Yeah, I’m seeing the same talking points come up that we all had months ago except with different users who may not know what’s been said before by other users.

Feels like all points have been exhausted and people got burnout from discussing - but some things have now been conceded to by the pro-Israeli side such as their government are not helping the situation / are extreme, how they’ve gone about the conflict hasn’t been clean.

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Hatfort said:

I guess this is a forum to share different perspectives and some debating happens. He was asking me questions, and even if I don't owe him answering them, I decided to do so. He didn't like it anyway.

Its not that, its that your explanations to my questions are still "Zionist killed, murdered, occupied, colonized". You didn't relate directly to my question but repeated your slogans. Hard to talk reasonably in this way.

Edited July 5 by Nivsch

[Raze]

12 hours ago, Nivsch said:

What is the main problem in your opinion? The damage to Gaza that was in excess (that I think too) or something else

Why?

And the brutal violence from the other side and his responsibility in triggering the second side too? What about that?

Right now this is true. They are in the opposition.

1) mass killing of civilians justified to defeat Hamas and rescue hostages but fails to do either meaning it is collective punishment. Also evidence of multiple war crimes and trying to make Gaza uninhabitable.

2) because Israel wanted to treat Gaza as a hostile entity to further ethnic cleansing. After Hamas won the election they offered a extended ceasefire but instead Israel backed a civil war and put them under the draconian blockade.

3) it’s the opposite, the violence of Israel triggers Palestinians, even now the settlers are rampaging in the West Bank, even hamas itself first took up arms in response to Israel killing peaceful protestors in the beginning of the first intifada

4) the opposition supports the war and apartheid all the same

9 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Have you considered why Zionism has started in the first place?

Well maybe because that area is ruled by a terror organization? 

I have impressed those marches of civilians near the border weren't innocent at all.

What caused them to start? 

Fore example the operation in 2014 started after 3 Israeli teenagers were murdered.

1) it was a colonial project of atheists and secular Jews to create a ethno state and extract wealth, it was  supported by evangelicals who believe it will hasten the end times and this belief was later adopted by religious Jews 

2) It isn’t just to stop military equipment, they purposefully limit calories and economic development to keep Gazans on the brink of collapse.
 

3) UN analysis of 500 cases of death or injury found only 2 were justified self defense 

4) Generally Israel continuously violates the ceasefire until a minor response occurs from Hamas which Israel uses as an excuse to kill hundreds to thousands of civilians 

Edited July 5 by Raze

[Hatfort]

2 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Its not that, its that your explanations to my questions are still "Zionist killed, murdered, occupied, colonized". You didn't relate directly to my question but repeated your slogans. Hard to talk reasonably in this way.

You asked a lot of questions, and I answered them as best as I could. That Zionists killed, murdered, occupied, and colonized it's not all I said, but if I consider that that's relevant in the context of the conversation, I will mention it. Besides that's not a slogan, it's what happened, so it's reasonable.

Edited July 5 by Hatfort

[Hatfort]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

1) mass killing of civilians justified to defeat Hamas and rescue hostages but fails to do either meaning it is collective punishment. Also evidence of multiple war crimes and trying to make Gaza uninhabitable.

2) because Israel wanted to treat Gaza as a hostile entity to further ethnic cleansing. After Hamas won the election they offered a extended ceasefire but instead Israel backed a civil war and put them under the draconian blockade.

3) it’s the opposite, the violence of Israel triggers Palestinians, even now the settlers are rampaging in the West Bank, even hamas itself first took up arms in response to Israel killing peaceful protestors in the beginning of the first intifada

4) the opposition supports the war and apartheid all the same

1) it was a colonial project of atheists and secular Jews to create a ethno state and extract wealth, it was  supported by evangelicals who believe it will hasten the end times and this belief was later adopted by religious Jews 

2) It isn’t just to stop military equipment, they purposefully limit calories and economic development to keep Gazans on the brink of collapse.
 

3) UN analysis of 500 cases of death or injury found only 2 were justified self defense 

4) Generally Israel continuously violates the ceasefire until a minor response occurs from Hamas which Israel uses as an excuse to kill hundreds to thousands of civilians 

You answered the questions better than me. Awesome!