Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Gennadiy1981]

5 minutes ago, Raze said:

The three oaths in the Talmud explain Jews were not to reclaim the land of Israel. The Israel of today is irrelevant to that as Jews had already lived there for centuries, the country of Israel is a violent settler colonial project attempting ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, who are genetically closer to the descendants of the original Jewish inhabitants. 
Given demographic and political trends all signs point to the project failing in the long run.

Ooooooh I like that, you want to challenge me with Bible. My friend nowhere in the Talmud or Torah or Tanah that Jews are not allowed to reclaim Israel. There is absolutely nowhere. There are various opinions by some Rabbis in the twenty first century but at the end of the day it’s their opinion only. I will debate anyone on that issue. Did you see my post where I quoted the Bible earlier? Indeed prophet Isaiah says that Israel shall be liberated via the sword, through the wars it will, be fought. The Jews will come from the four corners of the earth to settle and we will have an issue with the children of Ishmael. 
 

The Israel of today is precise based on biblical redemption and indeed it goes the way it has to go, indeed things are going perfectly as in the Bible and prophets predict, not any deviation. Indeed if Arabs say were kind enough and would negotiate with us back in 1947, we would not have Israel as we have today, exactly as stated in the Bible that we would liberate biblical Israel. Thank God they started the wars with us because if they did not, we would never liberate Jerusalem, again as prophesied in the Bible, and by the way, I am not going to sound radical, but if Arabs embraced Jews, and they would act like Europeans, today we would not have a Jewish State but rather a binational state. So my friends, everything indeed go perfectly as planned by heaven.

I can debate any Rabbi who will speak otherwise. But again, no ancient text of any kind, does not speak not to resettle the land of Israel, and a lot of stuff thrown on internet is fake info, you need to verify with the source and I don’t bite that someone said, he hard form his friend, or a bar tender or a stripper, if you quote something then have a source next to it.

[Gennadiy1981]

On 6/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, Gennadiy1981 said:

Hi @zazen I read and thought a lot on what you have said and you are right there, but...

There is this thing that bothers me or should I say i have an internal struggle with and believe it or not, were the prophets spokespeople on God or for God. I will tell you even one step further, especially when i start to do the awakening work, I would go one step further and say that the prophecy is a bullshit as Leo stated few times. But then, how do you expect what they have said turned out to be true. And again i am not speaking of something what they prophesied few thousand years ago back then what was happening, its hard to say as maybe the events were backtracked and the credit to them was given. Even to some moderate clairvoyants like Nostradamus, again many could have backtracked and we cannot know for sure. We can only speak somersetting what either we ourselves or perhaps our parents who are here to tell us.

Now Ia m an honest man, if there is something true, it would only be fair for me to acknowledge. Since I am Jewish and I am pretty verse in my religious portion for which i can speak off, lets take example with Israel, how the prophecies all came true, and those were prophesied few thousand years ago and how accurate they are. And this is something that happened within my grandparents time and even during our time.

Pardon me, but I want to quote some bible items for educational purpose below so I am not making those claim form empty mouth. 

(Deuterenomy 29:21-27) And the generation to come, your children that shall rise up after you, and the foreigner that shall come from a far land, shall say, when they see the plagues of that land, that the whole land has only sulfur and salt, and burning, it does not give its produce nor anything can be grown on it, like it was after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah… You know that until 20th century Israel was a desolate place, a desert, only I believe 3 cities were inhabited, the rest was dead, and you can find from writings of Dio Cassius, Count Constantine Frangois Volney, an eighteenth-century French author and historian who wrote, the Palestine is ruined and desolate land. “Many parts ... lost almost all their peasantry. In others.... the recession was great but not so total. "the greater part of the provinces are impoverished and laid waste." Or better yet read Mark Twain in his writings “The Innocents Abroad”, just to quote a few but there are more.

In the ancient book Zohar, chapter Exodus, 32a, Rabbi Yossi discusses with Rabbi  Hiya that when the children of Jacob (Jews) will come back to land, the Chldren of Ismael (Arabs) will greet with war. The return of Jews back to Israel is mentioned by (Ezekiel 37:12), “Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, O My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.” Basically saying that Jews would return to Israel almsot form graves, and thats true after Holocaust you can sya we were partially in graves. Then he continues that once Jews come back the land shall become furtile again, (Ezekiel 36:8) “O mountains of Israel, you shall shoot forth your branches, and yield your fruit to My people Israel; for they are at hand to come.”  Same as (Isaiah 61:4) “And they shall rebuild the eternal ruins, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall renew the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.” Mode tail can be found in Talmud Sanhedrin 98a. 

Prophet (Ezekiel 38:8-9, 22) says that Jews will have to fight their way to get Israel back  “In the end of times, they shall come against the land that is brought back from the sword, that is gathered out of many peoples, against the mountains of Israel, which have been a continual waste;

And this is my favorite, Talmud (Masekhet Makkot 24b), speaks of four great Rabbis at the time when Rome destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, "Rabban Gamliel, Rabbi Elazar ben Azaryah, Rabbi Yehoshua and Rabbi Akiva were walking towards Jerusalem. When they arrived at the Temple Mount, they saw a fox running out of the area where the Holy of Holies had been. They began to cry, while Rabbi Akiva laughed.""They said to him, 'Why are you laughing?'" - "He responded, 'Why are you crying?'"

The Rabbi reply, "'In front of us is the place that says, 'And the stranger who enters there, shall die,' we see a fox coming out, how can we not cry?'"Rabbi Akiva answered "'For that very reason, I am laughing. Isaiah the Prophet said, 'I will bring two reliable witnesses regarding my People, Uriah the Priest and Zechariah the prophet.'(Isaiah 8:2)  'Uriah quotes 'Therefore, because of you, Zion will be plowed under like a field.' (Uriah 3:12) In the case of Zechariah, we find, 'Yet again, elderly men and elderly women will sit in the streets of Jerusalem. And the streets of the city will be full of children, playing in her streets.'” (Zechariah 8:4-5). When Rabbi Akiva saw Uriah's prophecy coming true with the fox, he said that he has no doubt that the Zechariah's prophecy would come true. And walk on the streets of Jerusalem today, you will see elderly men and women sitting on the benches in the shadow of white buildings and you hear children's joy and the prophecy of Zachariah fully came to realization.

By the way i can go on and on, but dont want to bore you. I can provide thousand of mroe quotes and thats being modest, but how can you say those people bullshitted hen they predicted such. And if they predicted such details, and they claim they were messengers from God, how can I now close my eyes and let it go?

@Raze Read my prior post

Edited July 3 by Gennadiy1981

[Raze]

17 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Ooooooh I like that, you want to challenge me with Bible. My friend nowhere in the Talmud or Torah or Tanah that Jews are not allowed to reclaim Israel. There is absolutely nowhere. There are various opinions by some Rabbis in the twenty first century but at the end of the day it’s their opinion only. I will debate anyone on that issue. Did you see my post where I quoted the Bible earlier? Indeed prophet Isaiah says that Israel shall be liberated via the sword, through the wars it will, be fought. The Jews will come from the four corners of the earth to settle and we will have an issue with the children of Ishmael. 
 

The Israel of today is precise based on biblical redemption and indeed it goes the way it has to go, indeed things are going perfectly as in the Bible and prophets predict, not any deviation. Indeed if Arabs say were kind enough and would negotiate with us back in 1947, we would not have Israel as we have today, exactly as stated in the Bible that we would liberate biblical Israel. Thank God they started the wars with us because if they did not, we would never liberate Jerusalem, again as prophesied in the Bible, and by the way, I am not going to sound radical, but if Arabs embraced Jews, and they would act like Europeans, today we would not have a Jewish State but rather a binational state. So my friends, everything indeed go perfectly as planned by heaven.

I can debate any Rabbi who will speak otherwise. But again, no ancient text of any kind, does not speak not to resettle the land of Israel, and a lot of stuff thrown on internet is fake info, you need to verify with the source and I don’t bite that someone said, he hard form his friend, or a bar tender or a stripper, if you quote something then have a source next to it.

Jews shall not reclaim israel

https://www.sefaria.org/Ketubot.111a.4?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

The messiah will take the Jews to Israel, not the other way around

https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.43.5-6?lang=he-en&utm_source=aish.com&utm_medium=sefaria_linker

 

Edited July 3 by Raze

[Gennadiy1981]

12 minutes ago, Raze said:

Jews shall not reclaim israel

https://www.sefaria.org/Ketubot.111a.4?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en

The messiah will take the Jews to Israel, not the other way around

https://www.sefaria.org/Isaiah.43.5-6?lang=he-en&utm_source=aish.com&utm_medium=sefaria_linker

Thank you, that’s nice source, how do you know those sources, I assume you are not Jewish?

so let me start form the second source, it does not say Mesiah will gather, but rather God will gather (it used the word I) from four corners of the Earth. It speaks of very generic terms, but that prophecy from Isaiah does not speak of Messiah where in other portions he specifically ‘mentions Messiah. Indeed if you read the chapter you sent, this is very similar to 1948 indeed when Israel started and Jews flew form four corners of the Earth, so check one for that prophecy.

The first link you sent, speaks of very complex three oath, a very strange contract made between God and Jews (again much to explain but will go in very narrow explanation). The contract was (and again it was made on a very weak premise which is not part of Halacha, a Jewish law as it derived from Songs of Songs which is not followed by Jewish Law). The contract says that Jews should not ascend en masse (individuals ok), should not bring holly vessels (various options on it) and the nations shall not persecute Jews in large numbers. However, during the Holocaust the contract was broken, we were persecuted in large numbers and hence the deal was dead, we can ascend en masse. Let’s say this was true, but the deal is deal. And you are correct, as long as gentiles would not have committed a Holocaust against us, you may have an argument that we should not have ascended to Israel, but oh boy, after that Holocaust, Palestinians, be ready, we are coming home.

I am very impressed did you find that on your own? I know this website and I study myself from there, it has a lot of resources and useful information.

Edited July 3 by Gennadiy1981

[zazen]

@Gennadiy1981 I responded to that post above regarding prophecies which you may have missed. You had asked ''how can you say those people bullshitted when they predicted such. And if they predicted such details, and they claim they were messengers from God, how can I now close my eyes and let it go?' 

On 6/26/2024 at 10:49 AM, zazen said:

As you come from a Orthodox background its best to keep in mind that questioning something isn't rejecting it, but only revealing it in a new light with nuance.

A few ways prophecies can be explained:

Wisdom of pattern recognition - The observation of cyclical patterns in nature, society, and history can inform predictions that appear prophetic.

Vagueness / retroactive interpretation - Many prophecies are worded in a way that allows for multiple interpretations. The ambiguity makes it easier to fit various events to the prophecy after the fact.

Confirmation bias and their self fulfilling nature - People tend to remember and emphasise predictions that come true while forgetting or ignoring those that don't, creating an illusion of accuracy. The existence of a prophecy can influence people's behaviour, potentially leading to its fulfilment.

A better way to view prophecy is like a promise - of a vision or intention. They are like promises or intentions made sacred that mobilise people to work towards them, sometimes over generations. When these promises are finally fulfilled, we look back and call them prophetic. Perhaps it's not mystical foresight - it's human determination making a vision come true.

 

[Hatfort]

Here is an interview worth watching of Owen Jones with a Palestinian refugee who has tracked many of Israel's lies and attempted manipulations. How unbearable Israel was making life for Gazans and Palestinians before October last year, and all the lies that have come after too.

 

[Nivsch]

@Hatfort Owen Jones does any interview with the other side too? Or that he just found his way to feel moral and comfortable enough with it?

Edited July 3 by Nivsch

[Hatfort]

14 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Hatfort Owen Jones does any interview with the other side too? Or that he just found his way to feel moral and comfortable enough with it?

He does the interviews that he considers worth doing and sharing as an independent journalist capable of making his own decisions he is.

[Nivsch]

21 minutes ago, Hatfort said:

He does the interviews that he considers worth doing and sharing as an independent journalist capable of making his own decisions he is.

Oh... OK so lets see. So far I have seen only virtue signaling against one side, but never looked closer on his videos list so maybe I am wrong.

Edited July 3 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

Ok I wasn't wrong, he is a total activist against Israel. The second side does not interesting for him to hear at all. Dark as hell.

[Hatfort]

1 minute ago, Nivsch said:

Oh... OK so lets see. So far I have seen only virtue signaling against one side.

This is projection, this sentence suits you in this forum like a glove, so I don't know what's your problem with that now.

This is a well-educated refugee man from Gaza, his voice is relevant in this conflict, as a representation of the people of this part of Palestine that is being destroyed, unlike the other side that is not being destroyed. I'm not against interviewing people on both sides, it's totally fine. That doesn't mean we have to agree equally with both at all, but it's okay to listen to everyone.

What I think is that you don't like this particular side's story being shared, and you pursue an ad-hominem against the journalist.

The interview is valuable, the Gazan man shares his own and his people's struggles, and keeps good track of many of Israel's lies before and after October last year.

[Nivsch]

@Hatfort No problem with this specific video or with the idea to interview a refugee this is fine. What that is dark is that this is the side he chose according to his videos list in his user timeline because he interviews people and publishes things from only the anti Israeli side.

Edited July 3 by Nivsch

[Hatfort]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Hatfort No problem with this specific video or in the idea to interview a refugee this is fine. What that is dark is that this is the side he chose according to his videos list in his user timeline because he interview people from only the anti Israeli side.

Okay, but if we check your own timeline, you are not the best example of this that you ask others to do, so maybe you should check your own darkness as you call it first before pointing a finger at others.

[Karmadhi]

10 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

But what’s now is that we Israel owe this land and we owe it now, today and we ain’t give it to anyone as much as USA and most of the countries in the world. 

I am talking about them illegally stealing West Bank land, since you seem to be pro it for some reason. That is built on the argument that it was ours 4000 years ago. 

10 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

The Arab world had chances back then to negotiate but they lost their chance and they lost it forever. There is no going back. Thank God for it.

Why do you hate them so much? They treated Jews 1000x better than Europeans from what I read. 

Why not have 1 state where Palestinians and israelis live in peace and have equal rights.

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Why do you hate them so much? They treated Jews 1000x better than Europeans from what I read. 

Why not have 1 state where Palestinians and israelis live in peace and have equal rights.

They didn't treat Jews well at all. You keep repeating the same rhetoric, and it's never been true. Just because they were better than literal Nazis, doesn't mean anything. That doesn't mean we should hate them, but you need to understand the context of Jews living in Arab nations, they were treated dismally.

The one state solution is the most ridiculous of all paths forward. These two peoples don't share a common vision for how things should be. Let's say you had a magic wand and Israel was destroyed over night in favor of this one state. First agenda item, what is the name of the new state? All hell will break loose.

The conflict would devolve into a population war where both sides become more religious extremist to have more children and influence the path of the country. Before one side wins said population war, an all out civil war would break out and lead to mass violence.

Both people require their own self determination. 

[Danioover9000]

@Gennadiy1981

14 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Ooooooh I like that, you want to challenge me with Bible. My friend nowhere in the Talmud or Torah or Tanah that Jews are not allowed to reclaim Israel. There is absolutely nowhere. There are various opinions by some Rabbis in the twenty first century but at the end of the day it’s their opinion only. I will debate anyone on that issue. Did you see my post where I quoted the Bible earlier? Indeed prophet Isaiah says that Israel shall be liberated via the sword, through the wars it will, be fought. The Jews will come from the four corners of the earth to settle and we will have an issue with the children of Ishmael. 
 

The Israel of today is precise based on biblical redemption and indeed it goes the way it has to go, indeed things are going perfectly as in the Bible and prophets predict, not any deviation. Indeed if Arabs say were kind enough and would negotiate with us back in 1947, we would not have Israel as we have today, exactly as stated in the Bible that we would liberate biblical Israel. Thank God they started the wars with us because if they did not, we would never liberate Jerusalem, again as prophesied in the Bible, and by the way, I am not going to sound radical, but if Arabs embraced Jews, and they would act like Europeans, today we would not have a Jewish State but rather a binational state. So my friends, everything indeed go perfectly as planned by heaven.

I can debate any Rabbi who will speak otherwise. But again, no ancient text of any kind, does not speak not to resettle the land of Israel, and a lot of stuff thrown on internet is fake info, you need to verify with the source and I don’t bite that someone said, he hard form his friend, or a bar tender or a stripper, if you quote something then have a source next to it.

 

13 hours ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Thank you, that’s nice source, how do you know those sources, I assume you are not Jewish?

so let me start form the second source, it does not say Mesiah will gather, but rather God will gather (it used the word I) from four corners of the Earth. It speaks of very generic terms, but that prophecy from Isaiah does not speak of Messiah where in other portions he specifically ‘mentions Messiah. Indeed if you read the chapter you sent, this is very similar to 1948 indeed when Israel started and Jews flew form four corners of the Earth, so check one for that prophecy.

The first link you sent, speaks of very complex three oath, a very strange contract made between God and Jews (again much to explain but will go in very narrow explanation). The contract was (and again it was made on a very weak premise which is not part of Halacha, a Jewish law as it derived from Songs of Songs which is not followed by Jewish Law). The contract says that Jews should not ascend en masse (individuals ok), should not bring holly vessels (various options on it) and the nations shall not persecute Jews in large numbers. However, during the Holocaust the contract was broken, we were persecuted in large numbers and hence the deal was dead, we can ascend en masse. Let’s say this was true, but the deal is deal. And you are correct, as long as gentiles would not have committed a Holocaust against us, you may have an argument that we should not have ascended to Israel, but oh boy, after that Holocaust, Palestinians, be ready, we are coming home.

I am very impressed did you find that on your own? I know this website and I study myself from there, it has a lot of resources and useful information.

   Dude, stop spitting out essays and this fake sophistry and prose you're doing. Everybody here knows knows this isn't how you behave in real life, and the messiah prophecies from Israel are outdated. Face reality: Israel is slowly consuming Gaza, the west bank, and soon there'll be no Palestine state.

Edited July 3 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

   Because of @Gennadiy1981, @Vrubel, @hundreth, and @Nivsch low quality posts and drama we have @gambler having to edit out their post because of the heated exchanges. Pack it in now guys! You're scaring the newbies away! Same with @Twentyfirst, @Hatfort, even @Karmadhi. @zazen is ok.

[Danioover9000]

@gambler These were actually good posts! Don't let the others discourage you and make you edit stuff out!

14 hours ago, gambler said:

Yes I used the word ancestor so I know that you have an ancestor somewhere down the line who was from there. I don't know why you repeated what I wrote. And it was one of your ancestors' homeland, it wasn't yours to return to. You were never there during the exile. 

 

15 hours ago, gambler said:

The indigenousness of a population shouldn't even matter realistically-speaking. It's absurd that after 2000 years people can lay 'claim' to the past and hold others hostage to it. It's ancient history. Like what's more absurd than that?

 

15 hours ago, gambler said:

Who is we? You are not your ancestor. You did not get kicked out by anyone, you weren't even born yet. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Hatfort

8 hours ago, Hatfort said:

This is projection, this sentence suits you in this forum like a glove, so I don't know what's your problem with that now.

This is a well-educated refugee man from Gaza, his voice is relevant in this conflict, as a representation of the people of this part of Palestine that is being destroyed, unlike the other side that is not being destroyed. I'm not against interviewing people on both sides, it's totally fine. That doesn't mean we have to agree equally with both at all, but it's okay to listen to everyone.

What I think is that you don't like this particular side's story being shared, and you pursue an ad-hominem against the journalist.

The interview is valuable, the Gazan man shares his own and his people's struggles, and keeps good track of many of Israel's lies before and after October last year.

   This guy's been ad homineming almost every user here, and other fallacies! And it's not just him either, there are more doing it even in the last thread that got locked because of this. 

[Nivsch]

11 hours ago, Hatfort said:

Okay, but if we check your own timeline, you are not the best example of this that you ask others to do, so maybe you should check your own darkness as you call it first before pointing a finger at others.

You can think whatever you want.

His videos list is just very weird. Something obsessive/psychological/projectional with him is obviously going on here.

Edited July 3 by Nivsch