Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Nivsch]

[Raze]

https://archive.is/VMY4D

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Three Israeli Army Reservists Explain Why They Refuse to Continue Serving in Gaza

Yuval was required to torch two residential buildings; Michael realized how many civilians were likely to be killed during every bombing he observed; and Tal broke down when Israel entered Rafah. They are willing to suffer the price for their refusal to serve in Gaza

https://www.reuters.com/article/world/palestinian-children-tortured-used-as-shields-by-israel-un-idUSBRE95J0FR/

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Palestinian children tortured, used as shields by Israel

"DISPROPORTIONATE"

"Hundreds of Palestinian children have been killed and thousands injured over the reporting period as a result of the state party military operations, especially in Gaza where the state party proceeded to (conduct) air and naval strikes on densely populated areas with a significant presence of children, thus disregarding the principles of proportionality and distinction," the report said.

Israel battled a Palestinian uprising during part of the 10-year period examined by the committee.

It withdrew its troops and settlers from the Gaza Strip in 2006, but still blockades the Hamas-run enclave, from where Palestinian militants have sometimes fired rockets into Israel.

During the 10-year period, an estimated 7,000 Palestinian children aged 12 to 17, but some as young as nine, had been arrested, interrogated and detained, the U.N. report said.

Many are brought in leg chains and shackles before military courts, while youths are held in solitary confinement, sometimes for months, the report said.

It voiced deep concern at the "continuous use of Palestinian children as human shields and informants", saying 14 such cases had been reported between January 2010 and March 2013 alone.

Israeli soldiers had used Palestinian children to enter potentially dangerous buildings before them and to stand in front of military vehicles to deter stone-throwing, it said.

"Almost all those using children as human shields and informants have remained unpunished and the soldiers convicted for having forced at gunpoint a nine-year-old child to search bags suspected of containing explosives only received a suspended sentence of three months and were demoted," it said.

Israel's "illegal long-standing occupation" of Palestinian territory and the Syrian Golan Heights, continued expansion of "unlawful" Jewish settlements, construction of the Wall into the West Bank, land confiscation and destruction of homes and livelihoods "constitute severe and continuous violations of the rights of Palestinian children and their families", it said.

https://www.972mag.com/sde-teiman-prisoners-lawyer-mahajneh/?

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‘More horrific than Abu Ghraib’: Lawyer recounts visit to Israeli detention center

Mahajneh told +972 that Arab was nearly unrecognizable after 100 days in the detention facility; his face, hair, and skin color had changed, and he was covered with dirt and pigeon droppings. The journalist had not been given new clothes for nearly two months, and was only allowed to change his pants for the first time that day because of the lawyer’s visit.

According to Arab, detainees are continually blindfolded and tied up with their hands behind their backs, forced to sleep hunched over on the floor without any bedding. Their iron handcuffs are removed only during a weekly, minute-long shower. “But the prisoners began refusing to shower because they don’t have watches, and going beyond the allotted minute exposes prisoners to severe punishments, including hours outside in the heat or rain,” Mahajneh said.

All detainees, Mahajneh noted, face deteriorating health conditions due to the poor quality of the daily prison diet: a small amount of labaneh and a piece of cucumber or tomato. They also suffer from severe constipation, and for every 100 prisoners, only one roll of toilet paper is provided per day.

“The prisoners are prevented from talking to each other, even though more than 100 people are kept to a warehouse, some of them elderly and minors,” Mahajneh told +972. “They are not allowed to pray or even read the Qur’an.”

Arab also testified to his lawyer that Israeli guards sexually assaulted six prisoners with a stick in front of the other detainees after they had violated prison orders. “When he talked about rapes, I asked him, ‘Muhammad, you’re a journalist, are you sure about this?’” Mahajneh recounted. “But he said he saw it with his own eyes, and that what he was telling me was only a small part of what was happening there.”

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Yimpa

9 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

This is untrue. This is why college protesters look like 5 year olds to most and why they are treated as such.

   Actually I am proud that the UCLA colleges are doing their protests peacefully. Screw those pretending to be Palestine supporters but are alt right Zionists trying to make those protests violent. Classic fascist tactic 101, put sleeper agents in to make protest more violent.

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

11 minutes ago, Raze said:

So you are saying inflammatory slogans are the same as violence? Should the police shoot the knees off of college protestors because they used inflammatory slogans?

   Yeah that's ridiculous for any police officer to shoot legs off college protestors over a freaking slogan. Christ I actually think those that do follow the order are alt right trying to turn peaceful protesting violent.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

27 minutes ago, hundreth said:

- Please apply this reasoning universally. It is at best inflammatory in nature. We've heard how the peace talks were doomed because Israel was still building settlements. One isn't directly connected to the other, but it is inflammatory and symbolic. When Ariel Sharon visited the temple mount, it triggered an intifadah. Symbolics matter. By naming your movement and slogans in inflammatory ways, they aren't inspiring peace. 

- Who is "they" that don't want peace? There are different administrations, leaders, groups, movements. We've seen Israel make strong gestures towards peace depending on circumstance.

- I will look into this list and educate myself.

- I never said Hamas wasn't violent as well. I don't know what the ceasefires have to do with what we're talking about. Israel directly funded Hamas before the PLO declared non violence in 1993. Not after. Since then, they've allowed funds to flow through Qatar during times of ceasefire. 

   Yes, and why are they still building settlements then?

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

Christ I actually think those that do follow the order are alt right trying to turn peaceful protesting violent.

Jesus was a great example of how to challenge the order properly.

[Nivsch]

46 minutes ago, Raze said:

So you are saying inflammatory slogans are the same as violence? Should the police shoot the knees off of college protestors because they used inflammatory slogans?

Non-violent slogans can be just as harmful and dangerous long term as only physical violence, depend on the content of them.

Edited July 2 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

11 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Non-violent slogans can be just as harmful and dangerous long term as physical violence, depend on the content of them.

   Great, more censorship, PC culture, and cancel culture! As if we don't have enough of that in the UK/USA and other western countries!😂 Oh we gotta protect their feelings cuz they are such victims in the past! Gotta be careful to critique them because they fragile angels!🤣

   There's a big difference between free speech/hate speech, and critiquing while morally condemning a country. By your logic you'd turn the USA into an alt right police state, thought policing our thoughts for the state!

Edited July 2 by Danioover9000

[Nivsch]

@Danioover9000 I don't know what slogans specifically he talked about but in general free speech is not a license for violent encouraging speech.

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

@Danioover9000 I don't know what slogans specifically he talked about but in general free speech is not a license for violent encouraging speech.

When I brought it up I specifically mentioned March of return / right of return and from the river to the sea.

Both of which have double meanings, half violent in nature. In many ways they are veiled calls for violence because they inevitably lead to war and present visions which are irreconcilable among both sides. 

Is that a reason to shoot them in a vacuum? Of course not.

That said, I would not say this is really a great example of a non violent movement. I think if Palestinians were acting in good faith and had slogans that revolved more around their sovereignty and own independent state alongside Israel you would see a different reaction. 

[Karmadhi]

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

You also still deny and belittle pretty crucial aspects of 7/10.

Like what? I have  been pretty fair on that issue. I never claimed it was resistance or ok thing to do. Neither have I said that civilians were not targeted. Which are all things you hear from extreme pro Palestinian supporters. So what exactly am i denying? Only thing I denied was the 40 beheaded babies lie. I even said that rape most likely occured (another thing pro Palestinians deny). 

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Also purely practically speaking, Palestinians simply can’t use violence because they’ll just get hammered down (Whether you pamper them or not this will happen after terrorism). 

That is true, however the spirit of resistance is beyond logic. It is a theme throughout human history. Spartacus and his small army of slaves stood against the mighty Roman republic for example. It is fundamentally human nature. I really think if Israel gave Palestinian rights and stop brutally oppressing them and denying them statehood then the resistance spirit would be greatly nullified. Israel brutal policies and illegal land grab further fuel resistance.

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

A dark aspect of Palestinian psychology is that they hate how relatively normal, chill and peaceful they can live with Israel so they do things to provoke the Israelis to invite their "cruelty" onto themselves so they can show the world how pitiful and badly oppressed they are by the evil Israelis.

Yeah bro when someone illegally keeps oppressing you and stealing your land, what do you expect. How come you do not tell Ukranians to stop fighting Russians and live peacefully with them. Sure, Russia is stealing illegally their land and oppressing those that live there but hey, all good if you are chill right?

And to be fair, there is little difference in the brutality of the occupations. I would say in some ways Russians are softer on Ukraninians on the annexed territories than Israelis are on the West Bank Palestinians. But both are quite brutal. I seen Russians basically torture or abduct people for speaking Ukrainian there meanwhile Israelis snipe kids for the smallest inconvenience or detail people randomly for fun.

So can you explain me why you support Ukraine fighting back Russia but not the other way around?

Do you really think Israel is any more entitled to the West Bank than Russia is to Eastern Ukraine?

Edited July 2 by Karmadhi

[Gennadiy1981]

3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

So can you explain me why you support Ukraine fighting back Russia but not the other way around?

Do you really think Israel is any more entitled to the West Bank than Russia is to Eastern Ukraine?

Regarding West Bank, our justification is that we lived there before we got kicked out by Romans and also even in early twentieth century we purchased a lot of land in it. It is our cultural heritage and it’s Biblical Israel. Look a Jew has only right to  Tel Aviv which was built in 1905 only because of our right to Hebron which was built 4,000 thousand years ago. Abraham never walked on Dizengoff street (it’s like Times Square in USA) but he lived and was buried in Hebron, which is in West Bank.

So I personally don’t support neither Russia or Ukraine to be honest, and I am not picking any side. Now if you ask historically, and this is just pure history, so Ukraine was earlier kingdoms which actually used to be called small Russia (but was not on the territory of todays Russia). At some point in medeval ages it was attacked by Poland and half of Ukraine asked Russia to be under its protectorate (which is eastern Ukraine) and then when Bolshevikcs came in and took entire Ukraine, so they were not happy and actually during the war, the western Ukrainians did help the Nazis and they even established Nazis colonies, though after the war Soviet Union kinda eliminated them and some ran away to Hungary and so forth. Then it was under Soviet Union but as a Soviet Republic not part of Russia, meaning hypothetically they could have always seceded and there were attempts by individuals, those once they spoke off they were either arrested or found dead, there was zero tolerance policy. Except Crimea, that was part of Russia but during the asoviet time actually it was exchanged some part from Ukraine went to Russian and some to Ukraine such as Crimea. Though Russia never returned that portion back.

[gambler]

3 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Regarding West Bank, our justification is that we lived there before we got kicked out by Romans and also even in early twentieth century we purchased a lot of land in it. It is our cultural heritage and it’s Biblical Israel. Look a Jew has only right to  Tel Aviv which was built in 1905 only because of our right to Hebron which was built 4,000 thousand years ago. Abraham never walked on Dizengoff street (it’s like Times Square in USA) but he lived and was buried in Hebron, which is in West Bank.

Who is we? You are not your ancestor. You did not get kicked out by anyone, you weren't even born yet. 

[Raze]

12 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Regarding West Bank, our justification is that we lived there before we got kicked out by Romans and also even in early twentieth century we purchased a lot of land in it. It is our cultural heritage and it’s Biblical Israel. Look a Jew has only right to  Tel Aviv which was built in 1905 only because of our right to Hebron which was built 4,000 thousand years ago. Abraham never walked on Dizengoff street (it’s like Times Square in USA) but he lived and was buried in Hebron, which is in West Bank.

1. It’s absurd to think people should accept leaving their homes because you say a religious text written thousands of years ago declares it your land

2. The Palestinians are also genetically descended from the levant

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf

https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs004390000426

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/blood-thicker-than-water-welcome-home-abraham-a-van-kempen

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The local population in Palestine is racially more closely related to the Jews than to any other people, even among the Semitic ones. It is quite probable that the fellahin in Palestine are direct descendants of the Jewish and Canaanite rural population, with a slight admixture of Arab blood

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10212583/

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A 2020 study on human remains from Middle Bronze Age Palestinian (2100–1550 BC) populations suggests a significant degree of genetic continuity in Arabic-speaking Levantine populations (such as Palestinians, Druze, Lebanese, Jordanians, Bedouins, and Syrians), as well as several Jewish groups (such as Ashkenazi, Iranian, and Moroccan Jews).[20]Palestinians, among other Levantine groups, were found to derive 81–87% of their ancestry from Bronze age Levantines, relating to Canaanites as well as Kura–Araxes culture impact from before 2400 BCE (4400 years before present); 8–12% from an East African source and 5–10% from Bronze age Europeans. Results show that a significant European component was added to the region since the Bronze Age (on average ~8.7%), seemingly related to the Sea Peoples, excluding Ashkenazi and Moroccan Jews who harbour ~31–42% European-related ancestry, both populations having a history in Europe

 

Edited July 3 by Raze

[gambler]

The indigenousness of a population shouldn't even matter realistically-speaking. It's absurd that after 2000 years people can lay 'claim' to the past and hold others hostage to it. It's ancient history. Like what's more absurd than that?

[Karmadhi]

42 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

Regarding West Bank, our justification is that we lived there before we got kicked out by Romans and also even in early twentieth century we purchased a lot of land in it. It is our cultural heritage and it’s Biblical Israel. Look a Jew has only right to  Tel Aviv which was built in 1905 only because of our right to Hebron which was built 4,000 thousand years ago. Abraham never walked on Dizengoff street (it’s like Times Square in USA) but he lived and was buried in Hebron, which is in West Bank.

 

I dont think stuff from 4000 years ago is relevant in today's border definition. Every country has such claims. Israel should not get special treatment about it. You lost it 4000 years ago. Deal with it.

 

[Gennadiy1981]

1 hour ago, gambler said:

Who is we? You are not your ancestor. You did not get kicked out by anyone, you weren't even born yet. 

 My great great great grandfather was kicked out and not a day passed by that we have not stopped praying to return and now it’s ours.

 

27 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I dont think stuff from 4000 years ago is relevant in today's border definition. Every country has such claims. Israel should not get special treatment about it. You lost it 4000 years ago. Deal with it.

 

That’s baloney, most other countries are built on someone’s else land. First speak to USA so they give back land to Native American Indians, who by the way did take it and Europeans were never inhabiting the land. You are right what happened back then happened, it was then and this is now. But what’s now is that we Israel owe this land and we owe it now, today and we ain’t give it to anyone as much as USA and most of the countries in the world. 
 

The Arab world had chances back then to negotiate but they lost their chance and they lost it forever. There is no going back. Thank God for it.

[gambler]

5 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

 My great great great grandfather was kicked out and not a day passed by that we have not stopped praying to return and now it’s ours.

Yes I used the word ancestor so I know that you have an ancestor somewhere down the line who was from there. I don't know why you repeated what I wrote. And it was one of your ancestors' homeland, it wasn't yours to return to. You were never there during the exile. 

[Raze]

13 minutes ago, Gennadiy1981 said:

 My great great great grandfather was kicked out and not a day passed by that we have not stopped praying to return and now it’s ours.

 

That’s baloney, most other countries are built on someone’s else land. First speak to USA so they give back land to Native American Indians, who by the way did take it and Europeans were never inhabiting the land. You are right what happened back then happened, it was then and this is now. But what’s now is that we Israel owe this land and we owe it now, today and we ain’t give it to anyone as much as USA and most of the countries in the world. 
 

The Arab world had chances back then to negotiate but they lost their chance and they lost it forever. There is no going back. Thank God for it.

The three oaths in the Talmud explain Jews were not to reclaim the land of Israel. The Israel of today is irrelevant to any messianic prophecy and Jews had already lived there for centuries, the country of Israel is a violent settler colonial project founded by atheists attempting a long term ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, who are genetically closer to the descendants of the original Jewish inhabitants than the Europeans absorbing their land and imprisoning them. 
Given demographic and political trends all signs point to the project failing in the long run as every pillar to necessary to maintain an apartheid is degrading. 

Edited July 3 by Raze

[gambler]

Edit: don't care to carry on the conversation anymore. edited out my reply as a result. 

Edited July 3 by gambler