Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

1 minute ago, hundreth said:

Not to go back and forth about the march of return, as it becomes a bit of a rabbit hole...

But I noticed some use the march of return as a blanket get out of jail card to say "look the Palestinians tried non violent and look what happened!" - therefore there is no other way.

One thing about the march of return is that the destruction of Israel is implied in it's very name. Right of return = no Israel. It's also like this insistence to use "river to the sea" as some kind of "peace" call. It doesn't make sense, and doesn't inspire peace.

There are many non violent movements the Palestinians can choose from. And even if you take this idea that Israel squashed a non violent movement at face value, that STILL doesn't mean you drop the entire idea and double down on violence.

   And why is that? Because the name 'Israel' and 'state of Israel' is fabricated after the British mandate is over, and the deal is between Americans and the Jews to not call it a 'Jewish state' or 'state of Judea'. This all happened after the Al Nakba occurred. Also, that river to the sea is the same slogan used by Zionists talking about making a greater Israel. 

[hundreth]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@hundreth

   And why is that? Because the name 'Israel' and 'state of Israel' is fabricated after the British mandate is over, and the deal is between Americans and the Jews to not call it a 'Jewish state' or 'state of Judea'. This all happened after the Al Nakba occurred. Also, that river to the sea is the same slogan used by Zionists talking about making a greater Israel. 

You can stop quoting me btw, I don't respond to your nonsense.

[Vrubel]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

- What is your evidence?

- How did IDF targeting medics, journalists, and children stop this? 

Not being naive will help you here.

But those marches were organized by Hamas. Along with feeding the victimization cult, it was also a way for them to test Israeli defenses.  

 

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

Just now, Raze said:

- The PLO gave up armed resistance years ago, yet Israel just expanded settlements and settlers have killed hundreds of Palestinians 

- If Israel wants Palestinians to resist non violently, why do they assassinate peaceful figureheads and fund Hamas?

   Including Journalists too. Find it pretty suspicious killing journalists trying to cover that whole situation.

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

2 minutes ago, hundreth said:

You can stop quoting me btw, I don't respond to your nonsense.

   Yes, cope harder please.😂 BTW if you did put me in ignore, why respond?🤣

Edited July 2 by Danioover9000

[Raze]

Just now, Vrubel said:

Not being naive will help you here.

But those marches were organized by Hamas. Along with feeding the victimization cult, it was also a way for them to test Israeli defenses.  

 

No they weren’t, a different group organized them but Hamas endorsed them

Quote

In late February 2019, a United Nations Human Rights Council's independent commission found that of the 489 cases of Palestinian deaths or injuries analyzed, only two were possibly justified as responses to danger by Israeli security forces.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoIOPT/A_HRC_40_74.pdf
 

So according to you it’s ok for Israel to shoot the kneecaps of peaceful protestors because hamas might be testing Gaza’s defenses, yet you won’t criticize Israel for funding Hamas and removing guards from the border of Gaza 

 

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, Raze said:

- No it isn’t, a right for refugees to return to their stolen homes isn’t calling for all of Israel to fall. And even if they were, that doesn’t change the overwhelmingly peaceful nature of the protest.

- The PLO gave up armed resistance years ago, yet Israel just expanded settlements and settlers have killed hundreds of Palestinians 

- If Israel wants Palestinians to resist non violently, why do they assassinate peaceful figureheads and fund Hamas?

- We know what right of return entails, a population war that ends Israel. If you're objective is peace with your neighbor, you don't have a movement with the destruction of your neighbor in it's name. That would be like Russia having a "Ukraine belongs to Russia" non violent movement.

- Agree, Israel needs to work closer with moderate actors. Two things can be true at once.

- Which peaceful figureheads did they assassinate? Sincere question, I'm not aware. The whole funding Hamas thing is another red herring. Israel funded Hamas when the PLO was a violent movement to undermine them. Now, Hamas is the violent movement. In some way it makes sense, but it is a bad strategy which backfired. That doesn't mean Israel would prefer violent movements.

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

1 minute ago, Raze said:

No they weren’t, a different group organized them but Hamas endorsed them

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/HRBodies/HRCouncil/CoIOPT/A_HRC_40_74.pdf
 

So according to you it’s ok for Israel to shoot the kneecaps of peaceful protestors because hamas might be testing Gaza’s defenses, yet you won’t criticize Israel for funding Hamas and removing guards from the border of Gaza 

 

   It's mainly because of Israeli propaganda, and deep denial. Full stop. The descendance of those that committed genocide and the Al Nakba will not admit their side did some evil parts as well. 

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

1 minute ago, hundreth said:

- We know what right of return entails, a population war that ends Israel. If you're objective is peace with your neighbor, you don't have a movement with the destruction of your neighbor in it's name. That would be like Russia having a "Ukraine belongs to Russia" non violent movement.

- Agree, Israel needs to work closer with moderate actors. Two things can be true at once.

- Which peaceful figureheads did they assassinate? Sincere question, I'm not aware. The whole funding Hamas thing is another red herring. Israel funded Hamas when the PLO was a violent movement to undermine them. Now, Hamas is the violent movement. In some way it makes sense, but it is a bad strategy which backfired. That doesn't mean Israel would prefer violent movements.

   It's called racketeering if you don't know. Happens a lot in history. 

[Vrubel]

Just now, Raze said:

So according to you it’s ok for Israel to shoot the kneecaps of peaceful protestors because hamas might be testing Gaza’s defenses, yet you won’t criticize Israel for funding Hamas and removing guards from the border of Gaza 

 

Those "peaceful" civilian protesters are the same "civilian" crowd that marched in on 7/10. 

Of course, I hold Israel responsible for the massive 7/10 blunder.

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 minute ago, Vrubel said:

Those "peaceful" civilian protesters are the same "civilian" crowd that marched in on 7/10. 

Of course, I hold Israel responsible for the massive 7/10 blunder.

   How much do you hold them accountable though? You claim to hold Israel accountable for the massive Oct 7 blunder, yet you won't even say in here you morally condemn them, and weasel around both siding Palestinians and Israelis. 

[Vrubel]

I don't want to be taken out of context so I am reposting my original post that elicited a lot of these triggered responses:
(You don't have to fully agree with me and feel free to bring serious counterpoints.) 


 

Quote

 

  3 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I dont disagree with this but you are not seeing the full picture here.

Anyone who supports the IDF and serves in it is not innocent either.

You are only looking at half the story, only blaming 1 side when both are horrible.

I can easily say "Anyone who supports the illegal occupation of Palestine and Gaza essentially supports the consequences of their action to their fellow Israelis. 

You seem like a smart guy when it comes to other topics, I dont know why on this one you cannot see that you can easily reverse the roles and realize the devilry is on both sides.

 

" I agree that there are two sides but your equivalencies are mad and impossible to take seriously. You also still deny and belittle pretty crucial aspects of 7/10.

It’s just all starkly obvious to me which side is more upstanding, reasonable and decent. There is something to be said against Netanyahu and some of his extremist coalition partners. They're problematic however this issue is as temporary as can be. Israel has oscillating electoral results with left-center being highly decent and peace-oriented. Bibi was on his way out but got a new purpose now, courtesy of Hamas. 

Also purely practically speaking, Palestinians simply can’t use violence because they’ll just get hammered down (Whether you pamper them or not this will happen after terrorism). 
A dark aspect of Palestinian psychology is that they hate how relatively normal, chill and peaceful they can live with Israel so they do things to provoke the Israelis to invite their "cruelty" onto themselves so they can show the world how pitiful and badly oppressed they are by the evil Israelis. This is their cult of victimization. If they snap out of it they can be genuinely constructive in creating something functional and beautiful for their people. " 

 

Edited July 2 by Vrubel

[Raze]

34 minutes ago, hundreth said:

- We know what right of return entails, a population war that ends Israel. If you're objective is peace with your neighbor, you don't have a movement with the destruction of your neighbor in it's name. That would be like Russia having a "Ukraine belongs to Russia" non violent movement.

- Agree, Israel needs to work closer with moderate actors. Two things can be true at once.

- Which peaceful figureheads did they assassinate? Sincere question, I'm not aware. The whole funding Hamas thing is another red herring. Israel funded Hamas when the PLO was a violent movement to undermine them. Now, Hamas is the violent movement. In some way it makes sense, but it is a bad strategy which backfired. That doesn't mean Israel would prefer violent movements.

- Again, no it doesn’t. If you just accepted the right to return for first Gen refugees that’s just tens of thousands of old people. And again, even if it does, that doesn’t change the nature of a protest. If Russians were holding a protest without violence calling for that, that would still be a non violent protest.

- it’s almost like they don’t want peace…

-  Folke Bernadotte

James Miller

Tom Hurndall

Rachel Corrie

Shireen Abu Akleh

Rouzan Al-Najjar

Adan Al Bursh

Ahmed Abu Artema

Ibraheem Abu Thuraya

Refaat Alareer

- this is abjectly false. Israel rejected ceasefire proposals from Hamas multiple times and directed funds to them when they were using armed resistance and PLO wasn’t.

Edited July 2 by Raze

[Raze]

35 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Those "peaceful" civilian protesters are the same "civilian" crowd that marched in on 7/10. 

Of course, I hold Israel responsible for the massive 7/10 blunder.

Provide proof for this claim beyond just racist assumptions all Gazans are violent.

You can not shoot someone who poses no threat to you and claim it’s justified because other people later attacked you.
 

By your logic Oct 7 is justified because Hamas can just assume all the Israelis were the same idf who bombarded Gaza multiple times.

Edited July 2 by Raze

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel I think it's time you concede some points before arguing back. You are losing badly.

36 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I don't want to be taken out of context so I am reposting my original post that elicited a lot of these triggered responses:
(You don't have to fully agree with me and feel free to bring serious counterpoints.) 


 

" I agree that there are two sides but your equivalencies are mad and impossible to take seriously. You also still deny and belittle pretty crucial aspects of 7/10.

It’s just all starkly obvious to me which side is more upstanding, reasonable and decent. There is something to be said against Netanyahu and some of his extremist coalition partners. They're problematic however this issue is as temporary as can be. Israel has oscillating electoral results with left-center being highly decent and peace-oriented. Bibi was on his way out but got a new purpose now, courtesy of Hamas. 

Also purely practically speaking, Palestinians simply can’t use violence because they’ll just get hammered down (Whether you pamper them or not this will happen after terrorism). 
A dark aspect of Palestinian psychology is that they hate how relatively normal, chill and peaceful they can live with Israel so they do things to provoke the Israelis to invite their "cruelty" onto themselves so they can show the world how pitiful and badly oppressed they are by the evil Israelis. This is their cult of victimization. If they snap out of it they can be genuinely constructive in creating something functional and beautiful for their people. " 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Raze said:

- Again, no it doesn’t. If you just accepted the right to return for first Gen refugees that’s just tens of thousands of old people. And again, even if it does, that doesn’t change the nature of a protest. If Russians were holding a protest without violence calling for that, that would still be a non violent protest.

- it’s almost like they don’t want peace…

-  Folke Bernadotte

James Miller

Tom Hurndall

Rachel Corrie

Shireen Abu Akleh

Rouzan Al-Najjar

Adan Al Bursh

Ahmed Abu Artema

Ibraheem Abu Thuraya

Refaat Alareer

- this is abjectly false. Israel rejected ceasefire proposals from Hamas multiple times and directed funds to them when they were using armed resistance and PLO wasn’t.

 

7 minutes ago, Raze said:

Provide proof for this claim beyond just racist assumptions all Gazans are violent.

You can not shoot someone who poses no threat to you and claim it’s justified because other people later attacked you.
 

By your logic Oct 7 is justified because Hamas can just assume all the Israelis were the same idf who bombarded Gaza multiple times.

 

[hundreth]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

- Again, no it doesn’t. If you just accepted the right to return for first Gen refugees that’s just tens of thousands of old people. And again, even if it does, that doesn’t change the nature of a protest. If Russians were holding a protest without violence calling for that, that would still be a non violent protest.

- it’s almost like they don’t want peace…

-  Folke Bernadotte

James Miller

Tom Hurndall

Rachel Corrie

Shireen Abu Akleh

Rouzan Al-Najjar

Adan Al Bursh

Ahmed Abu Artema

Ibraheem Abu Thuraya

Refaat Alareer

- this is abjectly false. Israel rejected ceasefire proposals from Hamas multiple times and directed funds to them when they were using armed resistance and PLO wasn’t.

- Please apply this reasoning universally. It is at best inflammatory in nature. We've heard how the peace talks were doomed because Israel was still building settlements. One isn't directly connected to the other, but it is inflammatory and symbolic. When Ariel Sharon visited the temple mount, it triggered an intifadah. Symbolics matter. By naming your movement and slogans in inflammatory ways, they aren't inspiring peace. 

- Who is "they" that don't want peace? There are different administrations, leaders, groups, movements. We've seen Israel make strong gestures towards peace depending on circumstance.

- I will look into this list and educate myself.

- I never said Hamas wasn't violent as well. I don't know what the ceasefires have to do with what we're talking about. Israel directly funded Hamas before the PLO declared non violence in 1993. Not after. Since then, they've allowed funds to flow through Qatar during times of ceasefire. 

[Nivsch]

2 hours ago, Raze said:

Even some Israelis themselves admit it

Gideon Levi is very radical. Its ok to listen to him too but take with a grain of salt.

Edited July 2 by Nivsch

[Raze]

1 minute ago, hundreth said:

- Please apply this reasoning universally. It is at best inflammatory in nature. We've heard how the peace talks were doomed because Israel was still building settlements. One isn't directly connected to the other, but it is inflammatory and symbolic. When Ariel Sharon visited the temple mount, it triggered an intifadah. Symbolics matter. By naming your movement and slogans in inflammatory ways, they aren't inspiring peace. 

- Who is "they" that don't want peace? There are different administrations, leaders, groups, movements. We've seen Israel make strong gestures towards peace depending on circumstance.

- I will look into this list and educate myself.

- I never said Hamas wasn't violent as well. I don't know what the ceasefires have to do with what we're talking about. Israel directly funded Hamas before the PLO declared non violence in 1993. Not after. Since then, they've allowed funds to flow through Qatar during times of ceasefire. 

- inflammatory slogans are not the same as violence, if the protest is not using violence it is non violent even if they are being inflammatory. I am not saying they have to agree to whatever is demanded because they are being non violent, but what if the response to a large non violent movement was discussions, negotiations, and opportunities, rather than…

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200306-israel-snipers-boast-of-shooting-dozens-in-the-knees-during-gaza-protests/

- the Israeli establishment 

-

- yes, but the reasoning at least of the most recent transfers was to purposefully empower violent Hamas to hurt the PLO, putting Israelis at risk to have an excuse to hurt any chance of peace with Gaza 

[Yimpa]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

inflammatory slogans are not the same as violence, if the protest is not using violence it is non violent even if they are being inflammatory.

This is untrue. This is why college protesters look like 5 year olds to most and why they are treated as such.

Edited July 2 by Yimpa

[Raze]

Just now, Yimpa said:

This is untrue. This is why college protesters look like 5 year olds to most.

So you are saying inflammatory slogans are the same as violence? Should the police shoot the knees off of college protestors because they used inflammatory slogans?