Israel / Palestine News Thread

[Raze]

 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

On 2024-06-28 at 3:16 PM, Vrubel said:

The issue is not even about bias but about not being honest.

Al Jazeera has its (Qatari, Islamic, Arab) agenda and bias. Fair enough.

Al Jazeera Arabic is honest. Straight as can be, they will have a commentator denying or celebrating the Holocaust and nobody will bat an eye.  

Aljazeera English is dishonest. It has a tailor-made pretense. This of course to facilitate the Western extreme left - Islamist alliance. The prior serves as the useful idiots for the latter. 

   How is Aljazeera more dishonest than Israeli media???

[Nivsch]

9 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   How is Aljazeera more dishonest than Israeli media???

Red-Blue media vs Blue-Orange-Green media.

[Nivsch]

Eden Golan, the Israeli singer in Eurovision, interview.

 

Edited July 1 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

On 6/30/2024 at 11:13 AM, Vrubel said:

How is that going for him?

He will win the war soon and annex half the country probably. Around 15 million people added including tens of thousands of Ukranian childreen illegally abducted to Russia.

On 6/30/2024 at 11:13 AM, Vrubel said:

A part of the reason why It's deeply problematic that Putin still has this 19th-century war-is-the-norm mentality is because back then most common folk had 7 to 12 children. So even after a devastating war with muskets and "meatgrinder tactics", they could recover quite quickly. In the 21st century, war is less tenable, especially in Europe and especially now Russians have below-replacement birthrates and emigrate in significant numbers. 

Very true. I heard that a big part of his army is composed of Chechens and other people from those regions which tend to make a lot of kids. Maybe that is his plan, recruit people from poor parts that tend to make a lot of kids and not touch the richer parts where the birth rate is low. I heard the salary for a soldier is quite high compared to what they make in the poor parts of Russia. So many of them volunteer to join.

On 6/30/2024 at 11:13 AM, Vrubel said:

First of all, Israeli government and more crucially their governing system is a whole dimension apart from the Russian one.

 

Yes but it was going towards the dictatorship route with the judiciary reforms I heard. Also keep in mind, you can elect fascists democratically. Hitler was elected democratically for example. 

On 6/30/2024 at 11:13 AM, Vrubel said:

But I was (and still am) critical of the Israeli government but Israel was barbaricly invaded bursting a certain bubble of perceived security and now needs to thoroughly shake down the terror groups at its doorstep. 

"Barbaric invaded" is a  bit of a overstretch. Can you explain to me how it is any worse than other attacks in the last decades? A civilian death toll of 700 I think is small compared to other conflicts and invasions.

On 6/30/2024 at 11:13 AM, Vrubel said:

I feel sorry for the truly innocent civilians in Gaza

Since you tend to call many civilians in Gaza complicit, even though at least 1/3 are under 10 and therefore too young and truly innocent.

I got a question. I did some research and apparently in Israel military service is mandatory. So a lot of those 700 civilians killed in the October attacks, served in the army during their lives. Therefore, they actively took part in Israeli military actions. Are they truly innocent either?

Is a retired Wehrmarch soldier for example now innocent even though he was involved in their military activity? Shooting him off duty is a war crime under international law, but innocent? Is a Gaza civilians aiding Hamas any worse than a retired IDF personnel?  What do you think.

Edited July 1 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

@Karmadhi People who don't support Hamas are innocent. Anyone who supports Hamas or 7/10 essentially supports the consequences of their action to (their fellow) Gazans. Just because they partake in a death and self-victimization cult doesn't mean you should play along. 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Karmadhi People who don't support Hamas are innocent. Anyone who supports Hamas or 7/10 essentially supports the consequences of their action to (their fellow) Gazans. Just because they partake in a death and self-victimization cult doesn't mean you should play along. 

   Why reduce it down to a false dichotomy of if you support HAMMAs you support the consequences, or not support HAMMAs and you innocent? What happened to the grey area and nuance you were speaking about, that it depended on the situation and history?

   I'm still waiting for proof if those 48 beheaded babies is true, or those sexual assault claims being true, and other claims Israel media makes about HAMMAs other than what we've seen so far. Oh and if you want to stop HAMMAs, beforehand you should've not demilitarized Gaza and destabilized them such that they don't have a statehood, police or military to coup against HAMMAs.  

[Merkabah Star]

On 1/7/2024 at 6:39 PM, Nivsch said:

Eden Golan, the Israeli singer in Eurovision, interview.

 

Gorgeous girl and a great attitude. 

[Karmadhi]

3 hours ago, Vrubel said:

People who don't support Hamas are innocent. Anyone who supports Hamas or 7/10 essentially supports the consequences of their action to (their fellow) Gazans

I dont disagree with this but you are not seeing the full picture here.

Anyone who supports the IDF and serves in it is not innocent either.

You are only looking at half the story, only blaming 1 side when both are horrible.

I can easily say "Anyone who supports the illegal occupation of Palestine and Gaza essentially supports the consequences of their action to their fellow Israelis. 

You seem like a smart guy when it comes to other topics, I dont know why on this one you cannot see that you can easily reverse the roles and realize the devilry is on both sides.

Edited July 2 by Karmadhi

[hundreth]

16 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

"Barbaric invaded" is a  bit of a overstretch. Can you explain to me how it is any worse than other attacks in the last decades? A civilian death toll of 700 I think is small compared to other conflicts and invasions.

It is not an overstretch at all. You can see how they did it, they live streamed it. 

Consider Israel's size and population and you can see how traumatic that is. Any nation would have a serious reaction to such an event.

[Vrubel]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I dont disagree with this but you are not seeing the full picture here.

Anyone who supports the IDF and serves in it is not innocent either.

You are only looking at half the story, only blaming 1 side when both are horrible.

I can easily say "Anyone who supports the illegal occupation of Palestine and Gaza essentially supports the consequences of their action to their fellow Israelis. 

You seem like a smart guy when it comes to other topics, I dont know why on this one you cannot see that you can easily reverse the roles and realize the devilry is on both sides.

I agree that there are two sides but your equivalencies are mad and impossible to take seriously. You also still deny and belittle pretty crucial aspects of 7/10.

It’s just all starkly obvious to me which side is more upstanding, reasonable and decent. There is something to be said against Netanyahu and some of his extremist coalition partners. They're problematic however this issue is as temporary as can be. Israel has oscillating electoral results with left-center being highly decent and peace-oriented. Bibi was on his way out but got a new purpose now, courtesy of Hamas. 

Also purely practically speaking, Palestinians simply can’t use violence because they’ll just get hammered down (Whether you pamper them or not this will happen after terrorism). 
A dark aspect of Palestinian psychology is that they hate how relatively normal, chill and peaceful they can live with Israel so they do things to provoke the Israelis to invite their "cruelty" onto themselves so they can show the world how pitiful and badly oppressed they are by the evil Israelis. This is their cult of victimization. If they snap out of it they can be genuinely constructive in creating something functional and beautiful for their people. 
 

[Raze]

9 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Also purely practically speaking, Palestinians simply can’t use violence because they’ll just get hammered down (Whether you pamper them or not this will happen after terrorism). 
A dark aspect of Palestinian psychology is that they hate how relatively normal, chill and peaceful they can live with Israel so they do things to provoke the Israelis to invite their "cruelty" onto themselves so they can show the world how pitiful and badly oppressed they are by the evil Israelis. This is their cult of victimization. If they snap out of it they can be genuinely constructive in creating something functional and beautiful for their people. 
 

the last time Palestinians held a mass non violent movement, Israel killed over 200 of them in the great march of return.

It’s not a cult of victim hood if they are victims, Israel keeps millions of them without rights and brutalizes any resistance.

Israel society is absorbed in toxic stage blue victim politics which is why they constantly reference the holocaust which has no relevance to the Palestinian cause. 
Even some Israelis themselves admit it

 

[Danioover9000]

@Raze

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

the last time Palestinians held a mass non violent movement, Israel killed over 200 of them in the great march of return.

It’s not a cult of victim hood if they are victims, Israel keeps millions of them without rights and brutalizes any resistance.

Israel society is absorbed in toxic stage blue victim politics which is why they constantly reference the holocaust which has no relevance to the Palestinian cause. 
Even some Israelis themselves admit it

 

True, the fact there's double standards this deep is crazy. Propaganda is powerful.

[Vrubel]

2 minutes ago, Raze said:

the last time Palestinians held a mass non violent movement, Israel killed over 200 of them in the great march of return.

This is exactly what I mean. They basically wanted to do a 7/10 style breakthrough then but failed. But they still can rely on people like you to play into their cult. 

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

16 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

I agree that there are two sides but your equivalencies are mad and impossible to take seriously. You also still deny and belittle pretty crucial aspects of 7/10.

It’s just all starkly obvious to me which side is more upstanding, reasonable and decent. There is something to be said against Netanyahu and some of his extremist coalition partners. They're problematic however this issue is as temporary as can be. Israel has oscillating electoral results with left-center being highly decent and peace-oriented. Bibi was on his way out but got a new purpose now, courtesy of Hamas. 

Also purely practically speaking, Palestinians simply can’t use violence because they’ll just get hammered down (Whether you pamper them or not this will happen after terrorism). 
A dark aspect of Palestinian psychology is that they hate how relatively normal, chill and peaceful they can live with Israel so they do things to provoke the Israelis to invite their "cruelty" onto themselves so they can show the world how pitiful and badly oppressed they are by the evil Israelis. This is their cult of victimization. If they snap out of it they can be genuinely constructive in creating something functional and beautiful for their people. 
 

   How is @Karmadhi's false equivalencies anymore madder than yours, and your downplaying of Likud party's Zionism and genocide?

   A dark side of Palestinian psychology? Do you hear yourself talk and assume so much???😂

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

Just now, Vrubel said:

This is exactly what I mean. They basically wanted to do a 7/10 style breakthrough then but failed. But they still can rely on people like you to play into their cult. 

   Can you stop trying to instigate heated exchanges and making low quality posts?

[Danioover9000]

@hundreth

37 minutes ago, hundreth said:

It is not an overstretch at all. You can see how they did it, they live streamed it. 

Consider Israel's size and population and you can see how traumatic that is. Any nation would have a serious reaction to such an event.

   However, describing Oct 7 and HAMMAs as barbaric is an overstretch, compared to much more darker past events what they did is vanilla! I don't see savages or  barbaric people capable of using flight and flying drones and using gliders, do you?

Edited July 2 by Danioover9000

[hundreth]

4 minutes ago, Raze said:

the last time Palestinians held a mass non violent movement, Israel killed over 200 of them in the great march of return.

Not to go back and forth about the march of return, as it becomes a bit of a rabbit hole...

But I noticed some use the march of return as a blanket get out of jail card to say "look the Palestinians tried non violent and look what happened!" - therefore there is no other way.

One thing about the march of return is that the destruction of Israel is implied in it's very name. Right of return = no Israel. It's also like this insistence to use "river to the sea" as some kind of "peace" call. It doesn't make sense, and doesn't inspire peace.

There are many non violent movements the Palestinians can choose from. And even if you take this idea that Israel squashed a non violent movement at face value, that STILL doesn't mean you drop the entire idea and double down on violence.

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

This is exactly what I mean. They basically wanted to do a 7/10 style breakthrough then but failed. But they still can rely on people like you to play into their cult. 

- What is your evidence?

- How did IDF targeting medics, journalists, and children stop this? 

[Raze]

3 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Not to go back and forth about the march of return, as it becomes a bit of a rabbit hole...

But I noticed some use the march of return as a blanket get out of jail card to say "look the Palestinians tried non violent and look what happened!" - therefore there is no other way.

One thing about the march of return is that the destruction of Israel is implied in it's very name. Right of return = no Israel. It's also like this insistence to use "river to the sea" as some kind of "peace" call. It doesn't make sense, and doesn't inspire peace.

There are many non violent movements the Palestinians can choose from. And even if you take this idea that Israel squashed a non violent movement at face value, that STILL doesn't mean you drop the entire idea and double down on violence.

- No it isn’t, a right for refugees to return to their stolen homes isn’t calling for all of Israel to fall. And even if they were, that doesn’t change the overwhelmingly peaceful nature of the protest.

- The PLO gave up armed resistance years ago, yet Israel just expanded settlements and settlers have killed hundreds of Palestinians 

- If Israel wants Palestinians to resist non violently, why do they assassinate peaceful figureheads and fund Hamas?

Edited July 2 by Raze